hi ya'll !.
haven't been posting in a loooong time and perhaps this has already been discussed but i've heard that they're coming with a new understanding of the 144.000. that it should be taken symbolically and not literally!?.
i guess they have to change it since so many more apparently belongs to the anointed ones..... well i hope this will make a few of them think and leave.. thx.
"no way... its' the GB's foundation of their power"
Agreed.
English Standard Version (ESV)
13 "But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in. 15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.
july 11, 2011 will be 34 years since i was baptised as one of jw's.
the sleeping pill i took was in the form of them providing the information that made the bible come alive with the truth and insisting that they go by the bible not adding or taking away from it.
i had negative experiences from local brothers from time to time, however i excused them as part of being imperfect.
how he loves us - kim walker / jesus culture .
awesome!.
Not one you're likely to hear in the kingdom halls though!
how he loves us - kim walker / jesus culture .
awesome!.
whatever happened to the kingdom interlinear translation of the greek scriptures?part 1. print/download: pdfdoc.
the watchtower says on page 5 of the 1985 edition of the kit:.
there is no definite article in the greek before the word god in john 1:6, yet the wt translates it god, with a capital g!.
Probably not.
The main thing with the KIT is you get a proper translation direct from Greek to English, unlike the NWT which is twisted and corrupt.
my niv has notes at the bottom of pages, regarding other possible meanings and some definitions, etc.. anyway, it says that jesus is the greek form of joshua, which means the lord saves.
would that mean that joshua is the english form of his name?
thanks for your comments,.
http://strongsnumbers.com/greek/2424.htm
| << 2423 | 2424. Iésous | 2425 >> |
Original Word: ?ησο?ς, ο?, ?
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: Iésous
Phonetic Spelling: (ee-ay-sooce')
Short Definition: Jesus
Definition: Jesus; the Greek form of Joshua; Jesus, son of Eliezer; Jesus, surnamed Justus.
 |
2424Iesoús – Jesus, the transliteration of the Hebrew term, 3091/L?t ("Yehoshua"/Jehoshua, contracted to "Joshua") which means "Yahweh saves" (or "Yahweh is salvation").
"Jesus Christ" is properly "Jesus the Christ." "Jesus" (2424/Iesoús) is His human name, as the incarnate, eternal Son of God (Mt 1:21,25, see also Lk 1:31) – the Christ, the divine Messiah (the second Person of the holy Trinity).
[Christ (His title) means "the Anointed One" (the eternal pre-incarnate, Logos, Jn 1:1-18).]
Word Origin
of Hebrew origin Yehoshua
Definition
Jesus or Joshua, the name of the Messiah, also three other Isr.
NASB Word Usage
Jesus (904), Jesus' (7), Joshua (3).
NAS Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible with Hebrew-Aramaic and Greek Dictionaries
Copyright © 1981, 1998 by The Lockman Foundation
All rights reserved Lockman.org
 |
Of Hebrew origin (Yhowshuwa'); Jesus (i.e. Jehoshua), the name of our Lord and two (three) other Israelites -- Jesus.
see HEBREW Yhowshuwa'
?ησο? (iesou) − 328 Occurrences
whatever happened to the kingdom interlinear translation of the greek scriptures?part 1. print/download: pdfdoc.
the watchtower says on page 5 of the 1985 edition of the kit:.
there is no definite article in the greek before the word god in john 1:6, yet the wt translates it god, with a capital g!.
Excellent article regarding the KIT and download links http://www.soundwitness.org/jw/KIT_part1.htm
Part 1
Two Jehovah’s Witnesses stood on our doorstep with a flier. With some hesitation, they accepted my invitation to come in. We had a pleasant visit and exchanged telephone numbers as they agreed to return so that we might talk some more. A cell-phone call from their car set the time for the next meeting. It became apparent on this second visit that they had understood me to be a potential convert, which I am not. To their credit, they nevertheless stayed for the rest of the discussion, and one of them, the one who led it, even promised to return, “I will come”. I confess I had my doubts I’d ever see him again, since it had become somewhat evident that I was familiar with Watchtower doctrine and history.
When I made a phone call to set the time for the promised meeting, he declined. We talked a while on the phone and he told me that scholars commend the Watchtower’s New World Translation (hereafter NWT). I happened to refer to The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures (hereafter the KIT). To my great surprise this man, in his mid-twenties and a third generation Jehovah’s Witness, did not know what I was talking about, did not recognize the title. Though wary, his curiosity piqued when I described the interlinear translation for him: The left hand column is in Greek [the Wescott and Hort manuscript] with a direct English translation under each word. The right hand column is the Watchtower’s own translation (the NWT). The first edition of the KIT, published in 1969, is purple, and the second edition published in 1985, is dark blue. I own both of these editions. Still not quite convinced I was telling the truth, he asked me to read the front page of the books. I read it:
Copyright, 1969
by Watch Tower Bible & Tract Society of Pennsylvania.
First Edition: 500,000 copies
Publishers: Watchtower Bible and Tract Society of New York, Inc. International Bible Students Association.
Brooklyn, New York, U.S.A.
The second edition [printed 1985] has this additional information:
Total printing to 1985 of The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures: 800,000 copies.
He was finally satisfied that these books were indeed published by Jehovah’s Witnesses. I offered to show him the two copies, but he declined, saying he would look for them in the Kingdom Hall. Kingdom Halls usually have sizable libraries of Watchtower publications. Though I was curious as to why this man was not aware of these prized books, I expected he would find them in the library, as interlinear New Testaments are not the kind of books that go out of date.
After some weeks passed I called him again. I asked if he had found the interlinear and he said, without any explanation, that they were not in the library. This young man who was extremely polite and friendly on his first visit in our home and a little less so at the end of our second visit, was now cold and reluctant to talk, ending our conversation with, “I’m going to go now”, and hanging up on me.
If the KIT has gone out of circulation in the whole WT organization, not just in our community, I am indeed curious as to how the WT explained this move. (For further comment on the availability of the KIT, see Part 3). I’m not surprised if it has been removed, however, since it has, in my experience, been an embarrassment to Jehovah’s Witnesses many times over. That was not what the Watchtower had in mind, no doubt, when they published it. It was intended, no doubt, to impress the public and to give confidence to followers. We quote from page 5 of the 1985 edition of the KIT, under By Way of Explanation:
“Sincere seekers for eternal, life-giving truth desire an accurate understanding of the faith-inspiring Greek Scriptures, an understanding that is fortified by the knowledge of what the original language says and means. The purpose behind the publishing of The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures is to aid such seekers of truth and life. Its literal interlinear English translation is especially designed to open up to the student of the Sacred Scriptures what the original koine Greek basically or literally says.” [bold added]
Sound Witness invites “seekers of truth and life” to examine what the koine Greek “basically and literally says”, in order to compare the New World Translation with it.
Our companion article, The New World Translation on Trial, will compare some passages in the NWT to the original Greek. May we be like the Bereans of Acts 17:11 , who “examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true”.
Jump to Part 2
To download or purchase a copy of The Kingdom Interlinear Translation, click here.
Written by Greta Olsoe
Part 2
In Part 1, Whatever Happened to The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures?[the KIT],we raised the question as to whether this Interlinear, published by the Watchtower in two editions, 1969 and 1985, has been taken out of circulation by the Watchtower.We also stated that, if that is the case, it is not surprising: The KIT provided an immediate way for readers to check the right hand column, the Watchtower’s New World Translation (NWT), against the left hand column, the Westcott and Hort Greek, with direct English underneath. The Watchtower says on page 5 of the 1985 edition of the KIT:
“ Sincere seekers for eternal, life-giving truth desire an accurate understanding of the faith-inspiring Greek Scriptures, an understanding that is fortified by the knowledge of what the original language says and means. The purpose behind the publishing of The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures is to aid such seekers of truth and life. Its literal interlinear English translation is especially designed to open up to the student of the Sacred Scriptures what the original koine Greek basically or literally says.”
We hope interested and discerning readershave access to a copy of the KIT for verification of the following comparisons. Space does not allow for a comprehensive discussion of these passages so we leave it to the reader to examine the contexts, and the implications of the NWT’s renderings.
The following are a small but significant sampling of verses in question. The words to be compared are in red.
Reference | English under Greek | New World Transl. (NWT) |
Colossians 1:16-17 | “all (things)” | “all [other] things” “Other” added 4 times, though it is not present in the Greek; sometimes quoted without brackets in the publications [e.g. WT, 4/1/93, page 11]. Addition of “other” makes Jesus a thing. The brackets are not present in the 1950 edition of the NWT. |
Philippians 2:9 | “over every name” | “above every other name” Why this addition of “other”? For consideration: what is the name above every name? |
Romans 8:1 | “nothing really now condemnation to the (ones) in Christ Jesus;” | “therefore those in Christ Jesus have no condemnation”; Greek word “now” is omitted, weakening the assurance of present reality. |
Hebrews 11:13 | “strangers and alien residents they are “upon the earth”. [Context is Hebrew patriarchs] | “strangers and temporary residents in the land”. The WT teaches that Old Testament believers do not go to heaven, but will live on the earth.] |
Romans 8:23
| “awaiting the release by ransom of the body of us” | “waiting for adoption as sons, the release from our bodies by ransom.” The WT does not believe in the resurrection of the body. |
John 14:14 | [Jesus speaking] “ask me in the name of me” | “ask anything in my name.” “me” is left out. On page 9 of the Foreword in the 1969 edition it says, “Where we have varied from the Westcott and Hort text, our footnotes show the basis for our preferred reading.” [No such footnotes here. Jehovah’s Witnesses do not pray to Jesus.] |
2 Corinthians 5:17 | “if anyone in Christ, new creation;” | “if anyone is in unionwith Christ, he is a new creation;” The adding of “unionwith” occurs very often in NWT: Col. 1:2 , 28 ; Rom. 8:1 ; 2 Cor.13:5 ; Rom. 16:7 ; etc. In Gal.2:20, Christ “in union with me”. “Union with” isn’t in the Greek. |
1 Corinthians 11:23 , 25 | “This of me is the body…. The new covenant is in the my blood” | “this means my body”…. This cup means the new covenant by virtue of my blood” * * See article, Our Visit to the Kingdom Hall Memorial |
Colossians 1:27-28 | “to whom willed the God to make known what the riches f the glory of the mystery this in the nationswhich is Christ in YOU,the hope of the glory;” | To whom God has been pleased to make known what are the glorious riches of this sacred secret among the nations. It is Christ in union with YOU, the hope of [his] glory.” The Greek “musterion” is always translated “Sacred secret” by the WT. Christians sometimes speak of the Trinity as a “mystery”, hence, conceivably, the WT avoids the word. See Vine’s Expository Dictionary of Biblical Words: “In the ordinary sense a ‘mystery’ implies knowledge withheld; its Scriptural significance is truth revealed.” |
Romans 5:18 | “all men into condemnation” “all men into justification of life.” | “men of all sorts was condemnation…” “men of all sorts is a declaring of them righteous for life” |
John 8:58 | “Before Abraham to become I am.” | “Before Abraham came into existence, Ihave been” The WT’s footnote to John 8:58 gave, consecutively, three different grammatical rules as basis for this “have been” rendering. In fact, the footnote in the KIT’s 1969 edition says, “properly rendered in the perfect tense”, while the KIT’s 1985 edition says, “properly translated by the perfect indicative”! And earlier explanations, like “perfect indefinite tense” in the 1950 edition, have been discarded. The correct rendering is “I AM”. Compare Exodus 3:14 . |
Probably the most serious mistranslations the Watchtower made are in the first chapter of The Gospel of John. As we compare some of the following passages, we refer the reader to Greek scholars for further detail and deeper understanding of this subject. We suggest Robert Bowman’s book, Why You Should Believe in the Trinity.
John 1:18
Direct English Under the Greek in the KIT | NWT in the KIT, 1969 Edition | NWT in the KIT, 1985 Edition |
“God no one has seen at any time; only begotten god the (one) being into the bosom of the Father that (one) explained.” | “No man has seen (God) at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom position with the Father is the one that has explained him” | “No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.” “position” and “with” added in NWT; brackets added around “position” in 1985 edition, perhaps to soften criticism of 1969 edition. |
Additional notes on this John 1:18 passage:
All three columns have “god” in the lower case. Greek manuscripts were written in all upper case letters, so whether to capitalize a word has to be determined by other means, such as context.
The parenthesis around a word means that the parenthesized word is implied in the Greek.
The Watchtower’s argument has always been that where there is no definite article (“the”), in front of the Greek word for God, it should be translated, “god”, but where there is a definite article (“the”), in front of the Greek word for God, it should be translated God”, with a capital. [The Watchtower considers Jesus a “god”, not the “God”]. The WT’s dilemma here in John 1:18 is that neither occurrence of “GOD” in this passage has a definite article in front of it! This is proven in the left hand column of the Watchtower’s own KIT. Yet the WT arbitrarily translates the first occurrence of “THEOS” [Greek for God] as “God” [capital G]”, and the second occurrence of God as “god” [no capital],* because it is referring to Jesus, the “only-begotten”. See more on this subject in the comments below, under John 1:1-3 .
The New American Standard Bible translates John 1:18 like this:
“No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.”
*Keep in mind that the word [God] will not always look the same in Greek, as it depends on which case it is in; it nevertheless is the same word, God.
John 1:1-3
Direct English Under the Greek | KIT, 1969 Edition | KIT, 1985 Edition |
“In beginning was the Word, and the Word was toward the God and god was the Word. This (one) was in the beginning toward the God. All (things) through him came to be, and apart from him came to be not-but one (thing).” | “In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.* This one was in [the] beginning with God. All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.” * “A god” in contrast with “the God”. See Appendix under John 1:1 .[the WT’s footnote]
| The edition reads the same as the 1969, with the exception of the footnote which reads * “A god” in contrast with “the God” “See App. 2A” [the WT’s footnote] |
Additional notes on this John 1:1-3 passage:
There is no definite article in the Greek before the second occurrence of God, so the WT translated the word “a god”. So far, they are consistent with their supposed rule that if a noun has no definite article it is indefinite. However, just five verses later, in the New World Translation, we have this:
John 1:6 “There arose a man that was sent forth as a representative of God: his name was John.” There is no definite article in the Greek before the word “God” in John 1:6 , yet the WT translates it “God”, with a capital “G”!
This translation is absolutely correct, but it demolishes the WT’s “rule” that when there is no definite article present the noun must, of necessity, be translated as an indefinite [“a God”, hence a “god”]. The following occurrences of the word “God”, in the WT’s own New World Translation, are translated with a capital “G” even though there is no definite article, no “the”, present: John 3:2 ; John 13:3 ; 1 Thess. 2:5 , 1 Pet. 4:10 , 11 (four occurrences of the word “God”, two with the article, two without, yet all four are translated by the WT as “God”, capital “G”!
And to show how flexible the WT is in observing its own “rule” when it doesn’t serve the WT’s purpose, we quote Heb. 9:14 in the NWT: “How much more will the blood of the Christ, who through an everlasting spirit offered himself without blemish to God, cleanse our consciences from dead works that we may render sacred service to [the] living God?” There is no definite article before the word “God” in the Greek, yet the WT not only translates it “God” with a capital “G”, but supplies the definite article that is not present in the Greek! The WT translates it correctly here, but it broke its own “rule” to do that! So the “rule” is not absolute, just convenient in places like in John 1:1 where the Word, Jesus, is called God!
The Watchtower is bent on depriving Jesus of His Divine nature and it will do what it has to, even to the point of knowingly twisting the Scriptures.
We add one final point on the above passage, John 1:1-3 . We quote the Watchtower’s own translation of verses 2 and 3:
“This one was in [the] beginning with God. All things came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thing came into existence.”
You will remember that in the comparison chart at the top of this article it was shown that the WT had inserted the word “other” before the word “things” in Colossians chapter one. The WT apparently did not dare to insert “other” before “things” in this first chapter of John, so it stands as God wrote it: Apart from Jesus not even one think came into existence! Jesus is not created, not the first “thing” created, as the Watchtower would have you believe! The point in this passage is that Jesus is the Creator!
The New American Standard Bible translates John 1:1-3 like this:
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.”
I once read this passage from her own NWT, “not even one thing came into existence”, to a Jehovah’s Witness I emphasized the point that nothing came into being except that Jesus was along in the creating. She “helpfully” and cheerfully responded, “Well, except Jesus”, thinking that I had made a slip. She had missed the point entirely; so deeply is this misinterpretation ingrained in a Witness’ mind!
This inspection of the New World Translation is obviously very limited; it is only a starter. We advise the reader to do his/her own investigation by getting a copy of the KIT and by reading the claims in the Foreword to each edition. It is very important to compare the two editions as to the Foreword, the Appendix and the text, because the WT made significant changes to the 1985 edition.
Not the least of the WT’s changes is the list of Bible translations on page 1139 in the Appendix in the 1985 KIT. The list was, no doubt, added to support the WT’s “a god” rendering of John 1:1 . This list of eight translations includes three that are in German, another one that is the work of Unitarians. One is the Watchtower’s own translation (circular reasoning). Perhaps the most telling is that the second translation in the list is the work of a documented spiritist, John S. Thompson. All the translations are suspect. Is it any wonder if the Watchtower’s grand Interlinear, the KIT, is now off the shelves of the Kingdom Hall’s library?
Witnesses need to know the issues behind the Watchtower’s Interlinear. I once had an arranged meeting with two Witness women. They surprised me by bringing a third woman with them, to help with the study. She was from Greece, the wife to a prominent Witness in the district. The subject of the deity of Christ came up. We read John 1:1 from the KIT. I showed her that in verse six there is no definite article in front of “God”, (as was her argument for the “a god” rendering in verse one), and yet the Watchtower translated it with a capital “G”, “God”, in verse six. This woman, whose native language was Greek, was stunned. She stood up and walked out alone. The other two followed her slowly. The meeting was over and, sadly, I never saw them again.
It is always our hope and prayer that such people will, under the conviction of the Holy Spirit, think about what they have seen and about the cost of following an organization that uses deception to twist God’s Word.
Jesus Christ is the Son of God and hence He is God by nature, John 5:18 . Our salvation depends on this fact, Rev. 17:14 , John 3:16 , Rev. 1:8 and 22 , Titus 2:13 , etc.
Feel free to contact us as we are happy to talk with you and to answer questions you might have. Salvation is found in no one else [than Jesus Christ crucified], for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." ( Acts 4:10-12 )
Jump to Part 3
To download or purchase a copy of The Kingdom Interlinear Translation, click here.
Written by Greta Olsoe
Whatever Happened to The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures?
Part 3
Print/Download: PDFDOC
In Greta Olsoe’s article “Whatever Happened to The Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek Scriptures? Part 1,” she opines that The Kingdom Interlinear Translation (KIT) may have gone out of circulation. In February of 2010 a member of the Jehovah’s Witnesses contacted Sound Witness, stating: “So as far as I know, the KIT is alive and well…” and can be “specially ordered if requested.” Subsequently, someone who was attending Watchtower studies at a Kingdom Hall emailed Sound Witness and pointed out that "all you need to do to get a free copy is look interested, go to Fellowship Hall for three Sundays, and then ask." So the KIT is not out of circulation, it's just not obtainable unless you frequent a Kingdom Hall.
Sound Witness frequently receives email from people asking how they may obtain a copy of the KIT, so frequently in fact that a special page was created for further assistance, which is available here. These requests illustrate how difficult it is to track down a KIT. I often go to stores such as the Salvation Army and the Goodwill and peruse their book section, including stores all across the United States. While it is common to find Watchtower books on the shelves of these stores, I have never come across a KIT on the shelves of any of these stores. I checked eBay while writing this for availability of the KIT – there were two available to bid on, each with a starting price of $100. These are not the attributes of a book that is easily attainable, they are the attributes of a book that is difficult to obtain.
While the Watchtower website does include a “Publications Available” section, the KIT is not listed, nor can a query be made as to its availability, since the closest one can come to ordering a book or asking a question on the Watchtower website is a requirement to type your name and address into a computer-generated form, with no option to ask any question or leave a comment. If the Watchtower wanted the general public to have a KIT, it’s reasonable to assume that they would make it available on their website. In fact, the first Jehovah’s Witness emailer mentioned that “Kingdom Halls have never stocked this publication, but it is specially ordered if requested." By contrast, I went to the website of one major church denomination’s publishing company (Concordia Publishing House), and found that they do carry an interlinear Bible available for purchase (not a KIT of course).
Whether or not the KIT is available is immaterial. The important consideration is whether or not the KIT, with the Watchtower’s New World Translation embedded in it, is an accurate translation of God’s Holy Word. Greta and many other authors have proven that it is not accurate, and instead is deliberately misleading. As Greta mentions in Part 2, “It is always our hope and prayer that such people will, under the conviction of the Holy Spirit, think about what they have seen and about the cost of following an organization that uses deception to twist God’s Word.” For those who would like to delve further into the deception contained in the New World Translation, we recommend purchasing a used copy of the KIT, or downloading a copy, which is invaluable in demonstrating the mistranslations, additions, and subtractions that occur in the New World Translation.
Written by Scott Diekmann
To download or purchase a copy of The Kingdom Interlinear Translation, click here.
Online resources that demonstrate the unreliability of The New World Translation :
The Jehovah’s Witnesses’ New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures – Part 1, Part 2, Part 3
Jehovah Witnesses: The New World Translation
The New World Translation
The New World Translation and "Proskuneo" (worship)
Germans, JW's and John 1:1
The New World Translation and John 1:1: What the Scholars Really Said
The New World Translation and Its Critics
Misleading Revisions in the New World Translation
Click here for more articles on the Jehovah's Witnesses
did anyone else catch this?
excellent.. http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0114q4t/the_big_questions_series_4_episode_15/.
I thought Dawkins was pretty boring here.
Agreed. Maybe he is losing steam?
Personally I though the bishop put some good points across in the debate and the "scholar" only outgunned him in the eye candy department.
The thing that was missing overtly in the discussion is that the bible is living and breathing, it comes alive and speaks directly and personally to the reader, via the Holy Spirit. It was clear to me she was not hearing its message in that way but only as an ancient text. I found the Jewish lady's thoughts far more insightfull.
Stephen
did anyone else catch this?
excellent.. http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0114q4t/the_big_questions_series_4_episode_15/.
Thanks for posting Slim-great stuff indeed.
So what did you think of Dawkins performance?
And the others had to say?
Stephen
what does it matter?
i belive its been found that the romans used both, so what does it matter?.
what does it matter that the roman word for cross sounds also like a word for another god?.
It's a big deal.
English Standard Version (ESV)
18 For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.
Blessing in Christ,
Stephen
