Chalam

Joined

• started 84 topics
• posted 4,242 times   see topics posted on
• send a message

Posts by Chalam

• 
  40

  For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead...

  by Chalam in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this one bugged me for a while.

  i will quote the nwt for all the ex jws here ;) .

  ecclesiastes 9 nwt .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Chalam

  Hi GoddessRachel,
  Thanks for your post.
  
  Yes you need to forget the NWT and all the material you have which explains it. The NWT is full of changes to things of paramount importance such as what happens when we die, salvation, Jesus etc.
  
  The trouble is that teaching stays with one for far longer than the physical books. That is why I started the thread. So many ex Witnesses on here who are well aware of the the 'cult status' of the WTO but still carry with them some or many false beliefs from the organization.
  
  So get another Bible, any one will do save the NWT. Try them for free here
  
  http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=1&version=31
  
  You could go with a modern translation like the New International Version or try a modern paraphrase like The Message if you like. I really enjoyed that one.
  
  Most of all ask the Holy Spirit to help you understand what you read.
  
  1 Corinthians 2:14
  The man without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned.
  
  Regards,
  Stephen
• 
  40

  For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead...

  by Chalam in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this one bugged me for a while.

  i will quote the nwt for all the ex jws here ;) .

  ecclesiastes 9 nwt .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Chalam

  Hi AlphaOmega,
  Amen! Excellent points.
  
  The WTO will likely change these verses in a new edition of the NWT just as they have made many other changes so far :(
  
  The Bible says we are made in God's image.
  
  Genesis 1:26
  Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness.
  
  And it says we have a body, a soul and a spirit.
  
  Draw your own conclusions.
  
  Regards,
  Stephen
• 
  66

  The Gift of Speaking in Tongues?

  by Maddie in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  with the increase in evangelical churches there seems to be a lot more emphasis on the practise of "speaking in tongues".

  i quite like the way these churches conduct services, with live music and great singing.

  it is so different to the kh meetings and like fresh air.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Chalam

  Hi hmike,
  Thanks for your post-please see below.
  
  "I can't tell if there is any disagreement here or not. As I understand the New Testament, a person receives the Holy Spirit and is born again in response to faith in Jesus as the Christ, Son of God in the flesh (1 John). I do not see that this has to be accompanied by speaking in tongues. The presence of the Holy Spirit can be manifested in many ways, not always so spectacular."
  
  OK the Bible says we receive the Holy Spirit or are 'sealed' with Him on believing i.e. being born again and saved.
  
  However, the 'baptism of the Spirit' is a separate thing. One of the main outward signs that this has taken place is speaking in tongues or prophesying.
  
  
  "There are problems with making doctrine out of the events in Acts:
  
  -There is no mention of tongues accompanying most conversions mentioned. Maybe it's an argument from silence, but wouldn't it have been important enough to mention if it happened?"
  
  Well if you have understood that one receives the Spirit on believing but can receive baptism in the Spirit at any time afterward then I trust this makes more sense now?
  
  
  "-Whenever tongues accompanied conversion, at least one apostle was involved. You would have to say that it would be necessary to have an apostle to lay hands on someone for this to happen which is impossible today since the apostles have been gone for 1900 years."
  
  No, anyone can be converted and receive Spirit baptism at the same time. In fact it is preferable! One does not need to be an apostle. Neither do many of us believe that the apostles ended 1900 years ago. Paul outlined many roles here
  
  Ephesians 4:11
  It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers,
  
  Any nowhere said they would finish until 'perfection comes' see here
  
  1 Corinthians 13 (New International Version)
  But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears.
  
  That is why you still see people speaking in tongues, laying hand on people etc. as the New Testament details.
  
  "-In the particular scripture you referred to, Acts 19, the Ephesians only knew of John the Baptist and the baptism of repentance—they didn't even know of Jesus."
  
  Those who received John's baptism of repentance were in a position before Jesus had died.
  
  So they had repented but this is the first step in being saved.
  
  2 Corinthians 7:10
  Godly sorrow brings repentance that leads to salvation and leaves no regret, but worldly sorrow brings death.
  
  But one need to do this
  
  Romans 10:9
  That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
  
  More good verses on salvation.
  
  Romans 5:9-11
  9Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God's wrath through him! 10For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life! 11Not only is this so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received reconciliation.
  
  Titus 3:5
  he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
  
  
  Regards,
  Stephen
• 
  40

  For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead...

  by Chalam in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this one bugged me for a while.

  i will quote the nwt for all the ex jws here ;) .

  ecclesiastes 9 nwt .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Chalam

  Hi justhuman,
  I agree totally.
  
  Did you like the Job 14 explanation of Ec 9:5?
  
  As you mention, one verse for a whole doctrine is very dangerous. The JWs will have you thinking you lie dead in the ground 'knowing nothing' due to a single verse and the Mormons would have you baptizing your dead relatives to get them saved over another.
  
  Regards,
  Stephen
• 
  40

  For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead...

  by Chalam in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this one bugged me for a while.

  i will quote the nwt for all the ex jws here ;) .

  ecclesiastes 9 nwt .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Chalam

  Hi LouBelle,
  "The apostle Paul also said that he desired to put off this body to be with the father but for the sake of the congregation he didn't - so even if you were to take the bible literally this would mean his ""something or other (soul/spirit) would continue living""
  
  I agree. He wasn't saying he would rather be dead so he could lie in the ground 'conscious of nothing' but go to be with the Lord!
  
  2 Corinthians 5:8 (King James Version)
  We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.
  
  Same deal for one of the criminals at the crucifixion
  
  Luke 23:42-44 (New International Version)
  
  42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.[a]"
  43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
  
  Jesus' Death
  
  Regards,
  Stephen
• 
  40

  For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead...

  by Chalam in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this one bugged me for a while.

  i will quote the nwt for all the ex jws here ;) .

  ecclesiastes 9 nwt .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Chalam

  Hello heathen,
  "The bible is pretty confusing on it . It talks about the dead as if they are alive in the new testament and the living as being dead .I follow the reasoning that it is saying there will be a resurrection and that dead people are not conscious of anything until that time ."
  
  Please see my previous post. One can be physically alive and spiritually dead and physically dead but spiritually alive.
  Also, physically alive and spiritually alive.
  
  The last case YOU DO NOT WANT TO BE! Spiritually dead and physically dead.
  
  Hebrews 9:27
  Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgement.
  
  There are no second chances. Make sure you are born again!
  
  Regards,
  Stephen
• 
  40

  For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead...

  by Chalam in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this one bugged me for a while.

  i will quote the nwt for all the ex jws here ;) .

  ecclesiastes 9 nwt .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Chalam

  Hi Carmel,
  "Death is clearly referred to as a spiritual state. "Let the dead bury the dead" could not be understood if Jesus was not intending to demonstrate that those who chose not to believe were "dead" while still walking about! carmel"
  
  I partially agree but Jesus was also talking about a physical state too.
  
  Matthew 8:21-22
  Another disciple said to him, "Lord, first let me go and bury my father."
  But Jesus told him, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead."
  
  Quite clearly the disciple's father was physically dead and the disciple wanted to go and bury him.
  
  Jesus referred to those who were burying him as dead also. Obviously they were physically alive but spiritually dead.
  
  In following Jesus one becomes spiritually alive, that is born again-see John 3.
  
  Regards,
  Stephen
• 
  40

  For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead...

  by Chalam in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this one bugged me for a while.

  i will quote the nwt for all the ex jws here ;) .

  ecclesiastes 9 nwt .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Chalam

  Hi heathen,
  "I believe the parable of rich man and lazarus"
  
  Look closely and you will see that this is NOT described as a parable.
  
  The story is told literally and not metaphorically.
  
  Regards,
  Stephen
• 
  11

  where to go from here?

  by jacethespace in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  some of you on here know that i have been fading for sometime now and stopped going to meetings for quite a while but the past month or so i have returned.i am still just not sure whether at the end jws will be found to be gods people or not.. well today i attended the early sunday meeting eager to try and do what i still think could be right and despite the doubts i have about the watchtower.. now to be fair a number of people came and spoke to me said hello and stuff.the majority just didnt bother.but what really got me today was a number of people who i thought were my friends were just hateful.i even held the door open for one of them and they just were so hatefull and gave me funny looks as if i had the plague or something.i left feeling like this is no diffrent to any other religion.

  some nice and other people not so nice.all i could think of on the way home was so much for jehovah never forgetting what you have done for him.im starting to wonder whether the bible is really gods word after all.. i just feel im at a fork in the road and dont know what to do for the best..

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Chalam

  Hi,
  "1 Corinthians 13 (New International Version)
  
  Love
  
  4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres."
  
  Mark 12:30-32 (New International Version)
  
  30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[a] 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself"
  
  Doesn't seem to tie up with your experience much.
  
  Regards,
  Stephen
• 
  40

  For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead...

  by Chalam in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this one bugged me for a while.

  i will quote the nwt for all the ex jws here ;) .

  ecclesiastes 9 nwt .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Chalam

  Hi,
  This one bugged me for a while. I will quote the NWT for all the ex JWs here ;)
  
  Ecclesiastes 9 NWT
  5 "For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all"
  
  So is that the truth, the 'final answer'?
  
  If you hop over to Job 14
  
  Job 14 (New International Version)
  10 But man dies and is laid low;
  he breathes his last and is no more.
  
  11 As water disappears from the sea
  or a riverbed becomes parched and dry,
  
  12 so man lies down and does not rise;
  till the heavens are no more, men will not awake
  or be roused from their sleep.
  
  13 "If only you would hide me in the grave [b]
  and conceal me till your anger has passed!
  If only you would set me a time
  and then remember me!
  
  14 If a man dies, will he live again?
  All the days of my hard service
  I will wait for my renewal [c] to come.
  
  So we are in the right to answer this question
  
  
  OK check out a little later.
  
  "21 If his sons are honored, he does not know it;
  if they are brought low, he does not see it."
  
  Sounds just like Ec 5:9 right?
  
  OK now read the very next verse.
  
  "22 He feels but the pain of his own body
  and mourns only for himself."
  
  Doesn't sound like he has ceased to exist very much does it?
  
  Regards,
  Stephen