For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead...

Chalam

Hi,
This one bugged me for a while. I will quote the NWT for all the ex JWs here ;)

Ecclesiastes 9 NWT
5 "For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead, they are conscious of nothing at all"

So is that the truth, the 'final answer'?

If you hop over to Job 14

Job 14 (New International Version)
10 But man dies and is laid low;
he breathes his last and is no more.

11 As water disappears from the sea
or a riverbed becomes parched and dry,

12 so man lies down and does not rise;
till the heavens are no more, men will not awake
or be roused from their sleep.

13 "If only you would hide me in the grave [b]
and conceal me till your anger has passed!
If only you would set me a time
and then remember me!

14 If a man dies, will he live again?
All the days of my hard service
I will wait for my renewal [c] to come.

So we are in the right to answer this question

OK check out a little later.

"21 If his sons are honored, he does not know it;
if they are brought low, he does not see it."

Sounds just like Ec 5:9 right?

OK now read the very next verse.

"22 He feels but the pain of his own body
and mourns only for himself."

Doesn't sound like he has ceased to exist very much does it?

Regards,
Stephen

Carmel

Death is clearly referred to as a spiritual state. "Let the dead bury the dead" could not be understood if Jesus was not intending to demonstrate that those who chose not to believe were "dead" while still walking about! carmel

heathen

The bible is pretty confusing on it . It talks about the dead as if they are alive in the new testament and the living as being dead .I follow the reasoning that it is saying there will be a resurrection and that dead people are not conscious of anything until that time .

White Dove

...they are living it up drinking vodka martinis (hold the olive, please) in the Summerlands considering the next life lesson assignment. Even if reincarnation isn't true, it sure sounds a lot better than the prospect of living forever under WT elder headship, don't ya think?

LouBelle

I do believe that the bible is a spiritual book and is talking about the spiritual dead - they are concious of nothing as they cannot perceive the truth / they are not truly alive in the spirit.

I don't know if you were trying to answer your own question or what???

The apostle Paul also said that he desired to put off this body to be with the father but for the sake of the congregation he didn't - so even if you were to take the bible literally this would mean his ""something or other (soul/spirit) would continue living""

justhuman

If you isolate a specific scripture(lile WT does and other cults) then you can come to many conclusions, and basically wrong ones.

First you must see the entire Bible what does it says in this subject. Also the Bible contains mistakes because it was written by humans. Since it was written by humans it also contains and the personal views of the writters.

At the specific subject the answer is on chapter 12 at the same book and verse 7. Is refering to the physical death of humans, but the spirit returns to God that it came from.

But further in the parable of Lazarus and the rich man what does Jesus teach? At chapter 16 of the Gospel of Luke, Jesus said that Lazarus was taken by the angels in heaven, while the rich man in Hades(NOT HELL)

So refuting WT's claims that this is a parable there are some questions that need an answer:

1. Would Jesus preach a "demonic" teaching regarding soul? If He did so that means for sure there is something wrong...

2. Did Jesus ever use at the parable a science fiction characters? Like flying horses, and mairmaides, dragons and Cyclops like we Greeks have in our mythology? The answer is simply NO. Jesus was talking about REAL FACTS. He spoke about the harvest, the birds, the 10 wise virgins, a weding event, a farmer, a fisherman. He gave examples of DAILY REAL life.

So in the case of Lazarus He was reffering to a real fact. That the righteous persons are taken to heaven to be with God, while the unrighteous are going to Hades, a spiritual situation for those who chose to be way from God.

At 2 Corinthians 5:1-10 Paul is reffering to the body that is the tent of the soul and also Jesus at Mathew 6:26 the body is more precious from the dress. At 1 Peter 3:18,19 : Jesus died by the flesh, came to life in spirit, to the prisoned spirits He preached.

2 Peter 4:5,6 it says that "for this and to the dead He preached"(evangelion)also do not use NWT to see the scriptures, is better to use Kings James version

The summary of all is very clear:

The death at Ecclesiastis is the physical death of the body

Our souls when we die, either we go to Heaven to be with Jesus, or in Hades a place that the souls of dead humans are waiting for reseruction and judgement. Jesus preached to the Souls of the dead and open the gates of Hades for the righteous to be with Him in Heaven, as He promised to the murderer next to Him at the Cross.

heathen

I believe the parable of rich man and lazarus was about the adverse judgement the rich religious leaders were getting because of their hypocrisy . The jews knew about judgement day . The guy impaled next to christ was promised paradise , not heaven. There's a difference because the jews believed in inheriting the paradise earth prior to the new covenant after christs death and resurrection.

Chalam

Hi heathen,
"I believe the parable of rich man and lazarus"

Look closely and you will see that this is NOT described as a parable.

The story is told literally and not metaphorically.

Regards,
Stephen

Chalam

Hi Carmel,
"Death is clearly referred to as a spiritual state. "Let the dead bury the dead" could not be understood if Jesus was not intending to demonstrate that those who chose not to believe were "dead" while still walking about! carmel"

I partially agree but Jesus was also talking about a physical state too.

Matthew 8:21-22
Another disciple said to him, "Lord, first let me go and bury my father."
But Jesus told him, "Follow me, and let the dead bury their own dead."

Quite clearly the disciple's father was physically dead and the disciple wanted to go and bury him.

Jesus referred to those who were burying him as dead also. Obviously they were physically alive but spiritually dead.

In following Jesus one becomes spiritually alive, that is born again-see John 3.

Regards,
Stephen

Chalam

Hello heathen,
"The bible is pretty confusing on it . It talks about the dead as if they are alive in the new testament and the living as being dead .I follow the reasoning that it is saying there will be a resurrection and that dead people are not conscious of anything until that time ."

Please see my previous post. One can be physically alive and spiritually dead and physically dead but spiritually alive.
Also, physically alive and spiritually alive.

The last case YOU DO NOT WANT TO BE! Spiritually dead and physically dead.

Hebrews 9:27
Just as man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgement.

There are no second chances. Make sure you are born again!

Regards,
Stephen

For the living are conscious that they will die; but as for the dead...

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