Posts by Chalam

if god can read our hearts, why does he need an additional 144,000 creatures in heaven along with the already existing myriads of angels, to assist jesus in separating the sheep from the goats?

is there any scriptural answer for this that you know of?.

Chalam

So, the Lamb and the 144K are standing upon heavenly Jerusalem before it descends to the earth?

Interesting.

Could be. I guess they are beheaded and go to heaven during the Tribulation? Revelation 20:4

Certainly the Tribulation will be no fun for those who don't take the mark Revelation 13

My aim is not to confuse or deceive, but to challenge WT's dogmatism.

Blessings to you, also.

Indeed. Dogmatism is fine if you are right but the WT are usually wrong!

Check out the ESV notes above. They give a well rounded view of the different ways of interpreting passages such as this.

Blessings as ever in Christ,

Stephen xx

98

SBCheezits Judicial Hearing - My EPIC FAIL (REPOST for IE users)

by SweetBabyCheezits in

jw
friends

(note: i apologize to the internet explorer users.

you probably can't see my first epic fail thread because i used firefox to post.

there's still some kind of glitch between a plugin i'm running, firefox posts, and ie.).

Chalam

Of course, the big question is why the WT don't allow recordings of their "court room sessions"?

What better "witness" could there be to the event (save video recording)?

It seems they clearly have something to hide.

Anyhow, transcripts are being made and they will have to account for every single word.

Matthew 12:36 (New International Version)

36 But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken.

Daniel 7:10 (New International Version)

10 A river of fire was flowing,
coming out from before him.
Thousands upon thousands attended him;
ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him.
The court was seated,
and the books were opened.

Revelation 20:12 (New International Version)

12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books.

Blessings,

Stephen

4

Watchtower and Awake only 5 cents song.

by koolaid-man in

jw
friends

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wnpguqnnmyc&feature=related.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnz49f2iv8m&feature=related .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpqgjua5piw&feature=related .

Chalam

Lol I liked that WT & Awake song, funny stuff.

Indeed, great testimony and highly entertaining too :)

Blessings,

Stephen

85

Did the first Christians worship Jesus?

by slimboyfat in

new testament scholar james dunn has written a new book called did the first christians worship jesus?

the new testament evidence.

his answer to the question is a qualified no.. http://www.amazon.com/did-first-christians-worship-jesus/dp/0664231969/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=utf8&qid=1284146996&sr=1-1.

Chalam

To tell the truth, I am not sure what you are saying.

Maybe some simple questions (and answers) might help.

Are there are mistakes in the bible?
Is Jesus is not "Lord" and/or "God"?
Does the bible record worship of Jesus?
Are people/angels wrong to worship Jesus?
Are we to get out doctrine from "what we see" or what the bible says?

Personally, I have been going through a long period where all He wants to do is call me "friend" and "son". I have prayed more than once for the "fear of the Lord" (to avoid the pitfalls of sin) but all I receive is the arm of friendship and further mountains of grace. Obviously, He has better ideas how to deal with me :)

Jesus NEVER denies us access to the Father, that is false. The reason Jesus came was to give us permanent access to the Father! The curtain was torn in two from top to bottom-DO NOT go sewing it back up! We can come "boldly to the throne of grace" at any time.

Hebrews 10:19 (New International Version)

19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus

Ephesians 3:12 (New International Version)

12 In him and through faith in him we may approach God with freedom and confidence.

We have freedom and confidence. Jesus will never knock us back.

As it is the Spirit of God dwells in us! John 14:17, Romans 8:9, Romans 8:11, 1 Corinthians 3:16 , 2 Timothy 1:14 , 1 John 3:24 , 1 John 4:13

Jesus came not in glory but as a servant.

Philippians 2:5-7 (New International Version)

5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing,
taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.

When He returns, He will return in glory!

So, finally, how to you read these verses?

Isaiah 45:22-23 (New International Version)

22 "Turn to me and be saved,
all you ends of the earth;
for I am God, and there is no other.

23 By myself I have sworn,
my mouth has uttered in all integrity
a word that will not be revoked:
Before me every knee will bow;
by me every tongue will swear.

Philippians 2:8-11 (New International Version)

8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
and became obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

Or these?

Revelation 22:1-3 (New International Version)

The River of Life

1 Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, as clear as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 down the middle of the great street of the city. On each side of the river stood the tree of life, bearing twelve crops of fruit, yielding its fruit every month. And the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be any curse. The throne of God and of the Lamb will be in the city, and his servants will serve him. Blessings, Stephen

34

BIG talk with teenage son today

by Aussie Oz in

jw
friends

yesterday i got to ask my kids what they thought of the convention they just had.

response was 'really good'.

daughter liked the drama but could not say why or what the lesson was... so i figure she liked it because it was more interesting than the regular talks.

Chalam

Welcome Alan_56!

Proverbs 29:25 (English Standard Version)

25 The fear of man lays a snare,
but whoever trusts in the LORD is safe.

Blessings,

Stephen

74

Why 144,000 ?

by exwhyzee in

jw
friends

if god can read our hearts, why does he need an additional 144,000 creatures in heaven along with the already existing myriads of angels, to assist jesus in separating the sheep from the goats?

is there any scriptural answer for this that you know of?.

Chalam

The one at the top of the list

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Why 144000 ? (1), Jehovah's Witnesses / Friends - Jehovah's ...
20 posts - 13 authors - Last post: 2 hours ago 144000 is a vibrational frequency, the number of harmonic resonance, required to make the "ascension" from a 3-dimensional carbon-based body ...
www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/198835/1/Why-144-000
144000 (1), Jehovah's Witnesses / Friends - Jehovah's Witness ...
25 Aug 2010 ... Because of the power of 12, the 144000 represents the number of harmonic resonance. These people have ascended because of their love and ...
www.jehovahs-witness.net/197926/1 - Cached Show more results from www.jehovahs-witness.net
Bruce Cathie, Harmonics, Tesla & Steven Mark
The second tone, "RE", short for "resonare fibris" or resonance, also correlates mathematically to 144000 (a harmonic of the speed of light, Bruce L Cathie) ...
www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=2313.0;wap2 - United States - Cached
[PDF]
pdf- a4 pages
File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
In the 144000 minutes (1 day = 1440 minutes) you can help to dissipate dark- ness and create a world wide portal of natural harmonic resonance, simply by ...
www.avalonrising.co.uk/AvrisingPDFs/AvalonRising05-A4pages.pdf - Similar
Angel Script - Alphabet of the Ark - Crystalinks
It is the harmonic resonance of these archangelic letters with both the ... the Ark was chosen as the most viable path of all the 144000 available pathways, ...
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432: Sacred Music of the Spheres
The reciprocal harmonic of light or 1/144000 repeating .69444. ... In physics, resonance is the tendency of a system to oscillate at maximum amplitude at a ...
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The Harmonic Conquest of Space by Bruce Cathie
3928.371 harmonic. where c = 144000-90.9345139 = 143909.0655 .... than probable that any element or particle of matter not in harmonic resonance within the ...
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SACRED HARMONIC RESONATOR
... a perfect harmonic of the speed of light, which is 144000 nautical miles ( 144000 ... If that sound is dis-harmonic, a DNA starts to resonate to external ...
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Freethought Nation • View topic - 144.000 elect in the book of ...
8 posts - 7 authors - Last post: 11 Apr 144000 also happens to be the number of harmonic resonance... "and no one could master the song but the 144000..." ...
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Understanding the New Age — Chapter 11
There was a juncture of different energies occurring for the Harmonic .... To Arguelles, the144000 individuals linked together through "resonant ...
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74

Why 144,000 ?

by exwhyzee in

jw
friends

if god can read our hearts, why does he need an additional 144,000 creatures in heaven along with the already existing myriads of angels, to assist jesus in separating the sheep from the goats?

is there any scriptural answer for this that you know of?.

Chalam

Here's some notes from the ESV Study Bible on the 144, 000.

Rev. 7:1–17 Interlude: The Sealing of God's International Israel. There are three interludes (vv. 1–17; 10:1–11:14; 20:1–6) explaining the place of the saints in the events of Revelation. (As with the Egyptian plagues, the seals, trumpets, and bowls relate only to sinners.) Literal and symbolic approaches differ sharply in interpreting the vision of the “144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel” (7:4) and its relation to the next vision of an innumerable multitude “from every nation” (v. 9). Many understand this to be a reference to ethnic (or biological) Israel, and they would view the 144,000 as a symbolic or actual number of Jewish believers brought to faith immediately after Jesus returns and removes the church from the earth before (or during) a seven-year tribulation (this is a “pretribulation rapture” view). However, another common approach understands “Israel” as a reference to the church, the new covenant people of God, and in this view the visions of the 144,000 and of the international multitude are complementary perspectives on the church, believers from every nation including ethnic Israel. They are protected from the Lamb's wrath as his own flock (v. 17) but are exposed to persecution by evil enemies. The 144,000 reappear in 14:1–4, and their description there has a bearing on the interpretation here.

Rev. 7:4–8 The selection and order of the 12 tribes suggest that the 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel have symbolic significance, representing the church (however, see note on vv. 1–17 for an alternative view). These are not Jacob's sons, for Dan is omitted and Manasseh included. They are not the tribes that inherited land in Canaan, for Dan is omitted, Levi (the priestly tribe) is included, and Joseph is listed instead of his son Ephraim. Judah, the tribe of the Messiah (5:5), appears first rather than Reuben, the firstborn. When 7:5–8 is compared with the list of Jacob's sons in Gen. 35:22–26, the promotion of tribes descended from concubines Bilhah and Zilpah (Gad, Asher, Naphtali) over the sons of Leah and Rachel suggests that those once excluded from privilege are now included. The number 12,000reappears in the dimensions of the new Jerusalem (Rev. 21:16). Indeed, the number 144,000 (12 x 12 x 1,000) suggests symbolism here, but that does not necessarily decide the question of whether “Israel” is also a symbol for the church, or is intended to refer to literal, ethnic Israel.

Rev. 7:9 As in 5:4–5, where John first heard an OT title (the Lion of Judah) and then saw its NT fulfillment (the Lamb slain), so here John hears (7:4) the names of the sealed sons of Israel and then sees the NT fulfillment: a countless multitudefrom every nation, from all tribes and peoples and languages (cf. 5:9), whom God has rescued from wrath through the blood of the Lamb (7:14). They stand before the throne and before the Lamb in heaven, worshiping their Savior. They wear the white robes of victorious martyrs (6:11; see note on 2:17). Many who hold to a pretribulation “rapture” of the church think that the two groups of 7:1–8 and 7:9–17 are different (converted Jewish people still suffering on earth invv. 1–8, but the raptured church rejoicing in heaven in vv. 9–17). Others think these are Gentiles converted during the tribulation through the witness of the 144,000 Jewish believers who remain on earth (v. 4). Those who do not hold to a pretribulation rapture usually see vv. 1–8 and vv. 9–17 as the same group, with their suffering in vv. 1–8 turned to joy and reward in vv. 9–17.

Rev. 7:10–12 When the multitude extols God and the Lamb for salvation, angels and living creatures fall down and break out in a sevenfold doxology, almost replicating the sevenfold praise of the Lamb (5:12).

Rev. 7:13–14 An elder identifies the multitude as the ones coming out of the great tribulation. Some understand the definite article (Gk. he, “the”) to refer to one great final period of suffering, but others take this to represent the sufferings of the church throughout all history. The source of their robes' whiteness is the blood of the Lamb(cf. Ps. 51:7). John will later hear that “our brothers” have conquered their accuser by the blood of the Lamb and their testimony (Rev. 12:11).

Rev. 14:1 Mount Zion. Fulfilling Ps. 2:6, the Lamb stands in glory on God's holy hill in heaven (cf. Heb. 12:22), accompanied by his army. The sound of their harps and voices descends from heaven like a waterfall's thundering cascades as they sing “before the throne, the four living creatures,” and “the elders” (Rev. 4:2–8; 7:9–12). The seal on their foreheads (see note on 13:16–17) is the name of the Lamb and of his Father—a token of possession and protection by God, promised to every conqueror in the spiritual war (3:12). Most dispensationalists see these 144,000as the same group mentioned in 7:4: Jewish believers who have trusted in Christ as their Messiah during the great tribulation.

Rev. 14:1–15:8 The vision sequence leading to the seven last plagues (which will be described as “bowls” of God's wrath, 16:1–21) opens and closes with scenes of a heavenly choir singing praise to God (14:1–5; 15:2–4). Between these anthems John sees three angels who announce impending judgment (14:6–13) and three who order and execute harvests (14:15–20). At the center, between the three announcing angels and the three harvesting angels, John sees a seventh figure, one like a son of man, gathering his grain from the earth (14:14). Despite the beast's cruel persecution (ch. 13), these visions (like those inchs. 7 and 10–11) provide reassurance that God and the Lamb rule, and that martyrs already celebrate victory.

Rev. 14:1–5 The Lamb and His Sealed Victors. John's second vision of the 144,000 (cf. 7:1–8) interprets the seal they had received and the protection it provided.

Rev. 14:2 The singers with their harps will reappear beside the sea of glass (15:2–4; see 4:6); their song indicates that they are redeemed.

Rev. 14:3 The new song celebrates God's triumph over sin through the Lamb (5:9; 15:3), just as the Lord's prior victories were celebrated in new songs (Ps. 96:1; 98:1; 144:9). Their song belongs only to those who have experienced the Lamb's redemption (Ps. 107:1–3), into whose salvation angels “long to look” (1 Pet. 1:12). This is another indication that 144,000 should not be taken as a literal number; they represent those who have been redeemed (see notes on Rev. 7:1–17; 7:4–8).

Rev. 14:4–5 have not defiled themselves with women, for they are virgins. The spiritual purity of those who bear the Lamb's name is symbolized by the sexual self-denial that consecrated Israel for the wars that God commanded (cf. Deut. 23:9–11; 1 Sam. 21:5). Although portrayed as celibate males, the 144,000 (Rev. 14:3) signify believers of both sexes who, dying in faith, are gathered as firstfruits for God, foreshadowing a greater harvest. in their mouth no lie was found. They resemble Jesus, theblameless servant of the Lord (cf. Isa. 53:9).

Blessings,

Stephen

74

Why 144,000 ?

by exwhyzee in

jw
friends

if god can read our hearts, why does he need an additional 144,000 creatures in heaven along with the already existing myriads of angels, to assist jesus in separating the sheep from the goats?

is there any scriptural answer for this that you know of?.

Chalam

I would like to say that nowhere in Revelation is it stated that the 144K are in Heaven.

That is a WT construct.

Syl

Revelation 14:1 (New International Version)

The Lamb and the 144,000
1 Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads.
Hebrews 12:22 (New International Version)

22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly
Until Revelation 21, Mount Zion, the New Jerusalem is in heaven at which point it comes down "out of heaven", see verses 2 and 10.
The best way to confuse people is to throw a little truth in with the deception, ask the serpent
Genesis 3:1
Blessings,
Stephen