Posts by Rapunzel

12

About the unforgivable sin of blasphemy of holy spirit

by Vikier in

ok, i'm a newbie of jw and the reason why i'm here is because i once said "i deny of holy spirit" out of the disappointment at christianity that includes a theory of hell for disbelievers.

however i love jesus and please i want to know what's jw's belief on hell and afterlife, what's jw's belief on "blasphemy of holy spirit" which is said to be unforgivable.

please i really feel i'm hell bound and i hope i can get a relief here.

Rapunzel

Vickier - The short answer to your question is that the Witnesses do not believe in Hell; they utterly reject the entire concept of Hell as torturous punishment in the afterlife. In fact, they reject the whole idea of an afterlife in any way, shape or form. The Witnesses believe that the "dead are conscious of nothing;" for the Witnesses, the dead exist in a state of unconscious oblivion. The Witnesses use the Hebrew term Sheol [the grave] to designate the collective condition of dead people. The Witnesses regard dead people as existing in a state of total unawareness - an utter lack of consciousness. Witnesses do believe, however, that the dead will be resurrected and live on a paradise Earth. But, again, the Witnesses reject any notion of a Hell,with its attendant eternal torment.

In regard to the supposed sinning against the holy spirit, perhas somebody with more knowledge than me can answer this question in a better fashion. As far as I know, the idea of sinning against the Holy Spirit is indeterminable in their opinion. That is to say that the Witnesses believe that no one can ever really say for sure whether a person has sinned against the Holy Spirit. As far as I know, they leave that determination up to God.

3

Does the "24 Elders Class" constitute a New Class?

by Rapunzel in

i was wondering if someone could kindly answer my question: is there a new, "24 elders" class of people?

i was baptized a long time ago - in 1976. i also faded a long time ago; i left in '78 or so.

in any case, at that time, the witnesses generally spoke of two groups or classes of people - the so-called "annointed" consisting of the 144,000 with the heavenly hope, and the so called "large crowd" whose hope was to inherit an earthly paradise.

Rapunzel

Narkissos - Je vous remercie d'avoir repondu a ma question; je l'apprecie beaucoup. I must say that I find this interpretive nuance rather arbitrary and baffling. Specifically, i t baffles me how they can vacillate between the number 24 and the number 144,000 in designating the same group of people. As is well known, the Witnesses claim that the number 144,000 is a literal number; and this idea is itself an exception that runs counter to their tendency to ascribe a symbolic meaning to other numbers, i.e., they claim that the numbers seven (7) and twelve (12) are symbolic of completion and perfection, while 6 is symbolic of imperfection in that it falls short of 7. However, in turn, they use the number 24 to symbolically represent the formerly literal 144,000 as a collective "installed" in heaven. Thus, the number 24 becomes an exception to the exception?!?! On earth, these "annointed" are designated by the literal number 144,000 while in heaven, this same group is then designated by the symbolic number 24? Why does a literal number on Earth become a symbolic designation in heaven? Je n'y comprends rien!!

32

STRICKLY HYPOTHETICAL......

by agapa37 in

jw
friends

this question is a hypothetical one, posing a, what would you do type situation.

think back to the days of the bible kings for the nation of israel.

there were bad kings who took israel off track by their rule and some good kings who instituded changes that brought them back on track.

Rapunzel

- And why are Unitarian-Universalists such bad singers? Because they keep turning a coule of pages ahead in their hymn books to see if they agree with the words.

- One day, this guy buys a Mercedes Benz, and he's very proud of it, so he hopes to keep it. The thought occurs to him to enlist God's help and protection in the matter; and he goes to a priest and asks the priest to pronounce a blessing on his Mercedes. The priests asks: "What's a Mercedes?" The guy then goes to a rabbi; and the rabbi asks the same question: "What's a Mercedes?" In his quest for a blessing, the man goes to visit both a Hindu and Moslem clergyman; and they both ask the same question: "What's a Mercedes?" Finally, desperate and exasperated, the guy goes to a Unitarian-Universalist who asks: "What's a blessing?"

32

STRICKLY HYPOTHETICAL......

by agapa37 in

jw
friends

this question is a hypothetical one, posing a, what would you do type situation.

think back to the days of the bible kings for the nation of israel.

there were bad kings who took israel off track by their rule and some good kings who instituded changes that brought them back on track.

Rapunzel

In order to truly reform the Jehovah's Witnesses, it would be necessary to strip away all their false docrtines and ideology, reducing the movement down to the basis - the core - of all true religion which is, namely, to be found in what Jesus called [and what many others in diverse faiths have called] the two greatest commandments: 1.) To love God [however you conceive of God] with all your heart and 2.) to love other people as you love yourself. As a rabbi once said, these two commandments are the foundation of, and are at the heart of, the Torah; all else is merely commentary

In order to reform themselves, the Witnesses would need to understand that each person must approach "God" [a.k.a. the Unique; the Ineffable; the Ultimate] in his or her own way; my way cannot be another person's path, just as another person's path cannot be my way. The Witnesses would have to appreciate the personal and culture differences that mark each person's approach to God. They would have to manifest tolerance and allow each person to follow his/her conscience in their search for God.

In essence, the Witnesses would have to transform themselves into Unitarian-Universalists, you know, the people who begin their prayers with the words - "To whom it may concern..." Of course, such an idea is impossible. Can you imagine what you would get if you "crossed" a Jehovah's Witness with a U-U? You would get a pain in the ass who knocks on your door looking for a discussion.

31

What do you think will be the society's undoing?

by cognac in

jw
friends

i think all the lawsuits and then the exposure to these lawsuits... .

what do you think?.

Rapunzel

Unless someone captures all of the members of the Governing Body on video engaged in some sort of sex orgy [now, there's a thought to make you vomit!], I tend to doubt that the WTBS will ever totally cease to exist. After all, it's hard to "kill" an idea, be it a good or a bad one, a beneficial or an evil one. The doctrines of the Watchtower society and its teachings on many issues are protean, always shifting and changing to suit the interests of the organization. Moreover, a good number of Witnesses seemingly accept these changes [under the guise of what they call "new light"]. I may be wrong, but I think that Jehovah's Witnesses will be around for a good number of years, in one form or another. The question is: in what form will they remain, or rather, what form will they assume in the future? Will they go "mainstream," or at least draw nearer to mainstream religion? Or will they become even more radicalized and retreat even further to the "fringes"? Will New York Bethel maintain its [up until now] centralized control, or will the Jehovah's Witnesses in other countries "break out of the orbit" of Brooklyn and achieve relative autonomy?

3

Does the "24 Elders Class" constitute a New Class?

by Rapunzel in

i was wondering if someone could kindly answer my question: is there a new, "24 elders" class of people?

i was baptized a long time ago - in 1976. i also faded a long time ago; i left in '78 or so.

in any case, at that time, the witnesses generally spoke of two groups or classes of people - the so-called "annointed" consisting of the 144,000 with the heavenly hope, and the so called "large crowd" whose hope was to inherit an earthly paradise.

Rapunzel

Hello. I was wondering if someone could kindly answer my question: Is there a new, "24 elders" class of people? I was baptized a long time ago - in 1976. I also faded a long time ago; I left in '78 or so. In any case, at that time, the Witnesses generally spoke of two groups or classes of people - the so-called "annointed" consisting of the 144,000 with the heavenly hope, and the so called "large crowd" whose hope was to inherit an earthly paradise. But recently, I have read about the so-called 24 elders group. Is this "new light". Exactly to whom does this term apply? Does it refer to the Governing body? I would appreciate any info that you could give me. Thank you.

24

My friend wants to know how to stop the JW's from knocking at her door

by Velvetann in

jw
friends

i wonder if anyone here can help my friend.

i have no idea how to stop the witnesses from knocking at her door.

she has ms and its difficult for her to stand at the door.

Rapunzel

It seems to me that your friend can post a "NO TRESPASSING" sign. The Witnesses will have no choice but to respect such a sign. If they do not, I would suggest that your friend call the police. There's no reason why a woman in an ailing,debilitated condition should have to suffer harassment by Witness goons.

7

"secondary worship", obeisance, Jesus

by NanaR in

friends:.

i have a question for the researchers here.

i tried to do a search, but the word "worship" brings up way too many posts to filter through.. i remember as a young jw being told that jws render "secondary worship" to jesus christ.

Rapunzel

I understand that the term obeisance is a technical, specialized term when contrasted with the term worship. However, for what it is worth, the term obeisance is a French term [in French,you add an "s" and write obeissance] meaning simply "obedience." The French term obeissance derives from the verb, obeir, meaning to "obey." Perhaps this etymology can shed some light on the technical term obeisance. Perhaps the term connotes the idea that people should obey and heed the words of Jesus without worshipping him. Perhaps the term obeisance implies that Christians should make their behavior conform to Jesus' words without imlying that Christians should worship him; they should limit their worship to the Father alone. As I have said, I am not sure how the term obeisance is contrasted in technical terms with the word worship; and I have no dictionary of religious terms at my disposal. However, I am sure of its etymology; English took it from the French.

16

Mir'i-am

by Aleman in

in this topic i will put a text in which i ask everyone here to see if they fall under what mir'i-am did.

the text is num.12:1-10.. 1now mir iam and aaron began to speak against moses on account of the cush ite wife whom he had taken, because it was a cush ite wife he had taken.2and they kept saying: is it just by moses alone that jehovah has spoken?

is it not by us also that he has spoken?

Rapunzel

Aleman: You write about wicked people "stirring false ideas and pagan ideals" into other people's heads. I think that you're mixing your metaphors, there, vato. I think you're taking the expression, "instilling false ideas and pagan ideals," and confusing it with the expression "to stir up trouble" [meaning to raise a brouhaha].

16

Mir'i-am

by Aleman in

in this topic i will put a text in which i ask everyone here to see if they fall under what mir'i-am did.

the text is num.12:1-10.. 1now mir iam and aaron began to speak against moses on account of the cush ite wife whom he had taken, because it was a cush ite wife he had taken.2and they kept saying: is it just by moses alone that jehovah has spoken?

is it not by us also that he has spoken?

Rapunzel

I have a question: Why doth the Bible repeateth itself so much: and wherefore doth it repeat itself so much? Why beith itself so redundant; and why doth it employ such redundancy so as to become utterly redundant? For it is redundant, nay is it quite redundant, so much as that all people might look upon its redundancy while weeping and gnashing their teeth, making their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth heard from Judea to Samaria, and from Samaria to Judea. And lo! from the lands of Judea to the lands of Samaria shall their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth be heard by whomsoever haveth ears to hear their weeping and the gnashing of their teeth.