Posts by gravedancer

38

Freewill - a paradox

by gravedancer in

jw
friends

i have had a couple of discussions about freewill lately but it seems as if i am talking to a brick wall.

here is my basic reasoning, perhaps you can point out what i am missing.. lets outline the 2 common assumptions normally associated with the debate concerning adam, god and freewill:.

2. god gave adam freewill to obey him or not to.

gravedancer

OK

So since we all agree (yeah right!!!!!...lol) let’s start exploring the consequences of one of the assumptions being incorrect.

How about we start off and assume that God IS almighty and Adam did NOT have freewill.

Think about it and let’s postulate the consequences and issues associated with this.

I will chime in with my own as we go. Please try and keep to the subject if possible please. Would it be better to start a thread for each of the 3 possibilities and link back to this original thread? I am game but don't want to start new threads if we aren't going to have many possibilities.

38

Freewill - a paradox

by gravedancer in

jw
friends

i have had a couple of discussions about freewill lately but it seems as if i am talking to a brick wall.

here is my basic reasoning, perhaps you can point out what i am missing.. lets outline the 2 common assumptions normally associated with the debate concerning adam, god and freewill:.

2. god gave adam freewill to obey him or not to.

gravedancer

Sunstarr,

I respect your beliefs. I guess I am one of those who want to know that what I believe has a logical basis.

My premise now is :We were duped the first time - so why invest emotion, time and energy in something you aren't sure of? If you have to rely on something remaining a mystery then how do you know Christianity is correct vs any of the other multitude of belief systems?

38

Freewill - a paradox

by gravedancer in

jw
friends

i have had a couple of discussions about freewill lately but it seems as if i am talking to a brick wall.

here is my basic reasoning, perhaps you can point out what i am missing.. lets outline the 2 common assumptions normally associated with the debate concerning adam, god and freewill:.

2. god gave adam freewill to obey him or not to.

gravedancer

Skipper - fellow objectivist,

Yep, all he OMNI words....Omni-potent, omni-present...

I think one of the reasons I struggled, and many others struggle, with the issue is its just so tempting to bring "other issues" into the picture. In a way you did this, when you brought up the issue of God's retribution as a consequence for decisions made.

While that is a fabulous follow-up debate (one I would love to get into - I love this stuff), I see the issue of freewill vs omnipotence as THE primary issue that every Christian needs to face. Forget all the other issues Christians contend with - eg John 1:1 and every minor scriptural doctrine. If the foundation is shaky the whole house has to fall.

I have been expecting some posters to concede one of the 2 assumptions as false...so far no takers though.

If one of the assumptions is false - which one do you think it is?

Reserved for future discussion: "Can God have freewill?"

38

Freewill - a paradox

by gravedancer in

jw
friends

i have had a couple of discussions about freewill lately but it seems as if i am talking to a brick wall.

here is my basic reasoning, perhaps you can point out what i am missing.. lets outline the 2 common assumptions normally associated with the debate concerning adam, god and freewill:.

2. god gave adam freewill to obey him or not to.

gravedancer

Sunstarr - thanks,

Seems to me there is an issue with your analogy.

If PRIOR to the game occurring someone could know the outcome 100%...then their was no freewill!!! You have introduced timing issues into your analogy that cause it to not equate as an apples-to-apples comparison with the issue.

44

Your Opinions Please!!!!

by Ranchette in

jw
friends

the following is a post i made to prisca on another thread.

i am courious about how many agree with what i say here or am i wrong?.

re: rick and his thugs jan 20, 2002 13:15 .

gravedancer

Ranchette,

Let me ask you to clarify (please feel free to jump in simon and everyone) the premise of this thread.

I will do so by a series of questions (I will also include my own answers):

1. Was it wrong for Prisca's pic to be posted? My answer - YES

2. Was it wrong for Prisca's pic to have been forwarded to ANYONE else without her permission? My answer - YES

3. Should we all be careful what we tell others about ourselves? My answer - YES

4. Is Prisca owed an apology? My answer - YES

5. Are you tired of seeing Prisca and her opposers pissing all over every thread? My answer - YES

6. If you answer YES to point number 6, does this change the answers to any of the first 5 questions? My answer - NO

7. Are you sick of all the pissing by all the posters on the board...My answer - FUCK YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

38

Freewill - a paradox

by gravedancer in

jw
friends

i have had a couple of discussions about freewill lately but it seems as if i am talking to a brick wall.

here is my basic reasoning, perhaps you can point out what i am missing.. lets outline the 2 common assumptions normally associated with the debate concerning adam, god and freewill:.

2. god gave adam freewill to obey him or not to.

gravedancer

Hippi - sorry bud!!

I have thought about this issue for years...and my head has spun in circles over and over. I always used to add in stuff about predestination, the ransom, universal sovreignty yada yada yada...

But then I considered the theory of Occams Razor, which simply states: "Entities should not be multiplied unnecessarily". Ernst Mach advocated a version of Occam's razor which he called the Principle of Economy, stating that "Scientists must use the simplest means of arriving at their results and exclude everything not perceived by the senses."

So I distilled my thinking and elimiated all the "unnecessary" variables I could and was left with the two assumptions I listed in my original post. All the others make for some very interesting discussion, but they are all derivatives and consequences of the issue of "almightiness" vs "freewill".

38

Freewill - a paradox

by gravedancer in

jw
friends

i have had a couple of discussions about freewill lately but it seems as if i am talking to a brick wall.

here is my basic reasoning, perhaps you can point out what i am missing.. lets outline the 2 common assumptions normally associated with the debate concerning adam, god and freewill:.

2. god gave adam freewill to obey him or not to.

gravedancer

Dakota,

So if the term "Almighty" can allow for the fact that God did not AND could not know what Adam would choose, then how can he read "hearts" and/or minds?

38

Freewill - a paradox

by gravedancer in

jw
friends

i have had a couple of discussions about freewill lately but it seems as if i am talking to a brick wall.

here is my basic reasoning, perhaps you can point out what i am missing.. lets outline the 2 common assumptions normally associated with the debate concerning adam, god and freewill:.

2. god gave adam freewill to obey him or not to.

gravedancer

Hippi - thanks you raise a favorite argument of the freewill proponents viz. that God chose to limit his knowledge in the account of Adam (this is one the WT chooses also).

I have to credit Janh with the following:

Suppose you were God. And to firm up the argument lets suppose you, God, had the answer written on a piece of paper. But instead of looking at it, you put the piece of paper in your pocket and said "I am deliberately choosing not to know what Adam decision Adam will make"

See the flaw in the logic?

That is why I chose the wording I chose....

IF the outcome can be known, then it's not freewill. The fact that you, being God, choose not to know the outcome implies that you could know the outcome - and if the outcome can be known.....its therefore NOT freewill.

38

Freewill - a paradox

by gravedancer in

jw
friends

i have had a couple of discussions about freewill lately but it seems as if i am talking to a brick wall.

here is my basic reasoning, perhaps you can point out what i am missing.. lets outline the 2 common assumptions normally associated with the debate concerning adam, god and freewill:.

2. god gave adam freewill to obey him or not to.

gravedancer

Dakota,

Interesting response - thanks.

In essence you have declared God to not be almighty. Or otherwise you have pointed to a redefinition of the word "almighty".

Do you think God was powerful enough to know AHEAD of time WHAT choice Adam would make?

What do you think it should mean?

38

Freewill - a paradox

by gravedancer in

jw
friends

i have had a couple of discussions about freewill lately but it seems as if i am talking to a brick wall.

here is my basic reasoning, perhaps you can point out what i am missing.. lets outline the 2 common assumptions normally associated with the debate concerning adam, god and freewill:.

2. god gave adam freewill to obey him or not to.

gravedancer

I have had a couple of discussions about freewill lately but it seems as if I am talking to a brick wall. Here is my basic reasoning, perhaps you can point out what I am missing.

Lets outline the 2 common assumptions normally associated with the debate concerning Adam, God and freewill:

1. God is almighty
2. God gave Adam freewill to obey him or not to

Seems simple right? (yeah I know some will say I am oversimplifying the issue but if you think about it long enough I dont think I am).

So lets look at the situation logically then.

If God is almighty then he knew what choice Adam would make PRIOR to Adam making it.

THAT IS A CONTRADICTION.
If the outcome could be know ahead of time then God did not give Adam freewill.

Can you see this as clearly as I do? If not please post and we can try and enhance it.

Conclusion
In view of the paradox we have to challenege our assumptions. Either one or both aassumptions are false. Either God is not almighty or Adam was not given freewill.

The implications of either assumption being false are simply HUGE. What do you think they are?