Freewill - a paradox

gravedancer

I have had a couple of discussions about freewill lately but it seems as if I am talking to a brick wall. Here is my basic reasoning, perhaps you can point out what I am missing.

Lets outline the 2 common assumptions normally associated with the debate concerning Adam, God and freewill:

1. God is almighty
2. God gave Adam freewill to obey him or not to

Seems simple right? (yeah I know some will say I am oversimplifying the issue but if you think about it long enough I dont think I am).

So lets look at the situation logically then.

If God is almighty then he knew what choice Adam would make PRIOR to Adam making it.

THAT IS A CONTRADICTION.
If the outcome could be know ahead of time then God did not give Adam freewill.

Can you see this as clearly as I do? If not please post and we can try and enhance it.

Conclusion
In view of the paradox we have to challenege our assumptions. Either one or both aassumptions are false. Either God is not almighty or Adam was not given freewill.

The implications of either assumption being false are simply HUGE. What do you think they are?

To me, it seems that you are confusing free will with predestination. As I see it, having a free will means that we are free to choose and even though God may know how a choice will affect us, he does not interfere with that choice. His being Almighty does not necessarily mean that he already knows what we will choose, just how a choice may affect us.

It's kind of like the old "if God can do absolutely anything, can he create and object that he himself cannot move?" Of course, there is no answer to that.

If God's Spirit is filling a Kingdom Hall, how is it that Satan can manuever the ones within that Kingdom Hall at the same time?

gravedancer

Dakota,

Interesting response - thanks.

In essence you have declared God to not be almighty. Or otherwise you have pointed to a redefinition of the word "almighty".

Do you think God was powerful enough to know AHEAD of time WHAT choice Adam would make?

What do you think it should mean?

hippikon

Ahhh Bot God chooses to limit his abilities (Omniscience) for the sake of freedom of choice. One thing that God can't do is break his own rules. And the rule with humans is freedom of choice. But like any good programmer though he has secret trap doors in his program that he can use to shortcut the rules and manipulate people (Which is diferent than forcing them against their will). Hell I think hes manipulating me right now! Ahhh Stop it Stop it. I'm evil ok so just leave me alone.

DakotaRed

Hi Grave,

I try not to get too hung up on words. Placing extreme emphasis on individual words is what I believe has led many down the path of ruin. But, in reply to your question, Vines says of "Almighty," "ruler of all." To me, that leaves room for God to allow us free will in decision making without him making choices for us. If he were to make, or know what our choices will be, then I would have to say life itself is an exercise in futility. We are individually responsible for what choices we make and the outcome, no one else.

If God's Spirit is filling a Kingdom Hall, how is it that Satan can manuever the ones within that Kingdom Hall at the same time?

teenyuck

gravedancer,

I am glad you brought this up. I have had the same question. My mother is still an ardent JW, when asked, I have gotten the same answer DakotaRed gave.

Which all goes back to is God almighty? If there is a God (my beliefs do not support the theory) and he were almighty, he would have known what Adam was going to do.

Which brings up the question of why did God, the almighty, let Satan continue? Why not zap him like a mosquito? Why create all the misery and suffering humans have endured? For our free will?!

It all defies logic.

kpax

What about this one! God can let the sun (sun??) stand still so his people can finish the fight and kill some more people but will not save the innocent people suffering in this time. Very strange!

Kpax

gravedancer

Hippi - thanks you raise a favorite argument of the freewill proponents viz. that God chose to limit his knowledge in the account of Adam (this is one the WT chooses also).

I have to credit Janh with the following:

Suppose you were God. And to firm up the argument lets suppose you, God, had the answer written on a piece of paper. But instead of looking at it, you put the piece of paper in your pocket and said "I am deliberately choosing not to know what Adam decision Adam will make"

See the flaw in the logic?

That is why I chose the wording I chose....

IF the outcome can be known, then it's not freewill. The fact that you, being God, choose not to know the outcome implies that you could know the outcome - and if the outcome can be known.....its therefore NOT freewill.

teenyuck

Gravedancer-

Exactly!!!!!!!

gravedancer

Dakota,

So if the term "Almighty" can allow for the fact that God did not AND could not know what Adam would choose, then how can he read "hearts" and/or minds?

Freewill - a paradox

Share this