Posts by Greenpalmtreestillmine

7

Is Jesus Christ and Michael Jackson one and the same person?

by Swan in

consider the following.... mj moonwalks; jc walks on water.

coincidence?.

jc looks different in all of his pictures (compare michaelangelo's last supper with listening to the great teacher); mj looks different in all of his pictures.

Is Jesus Christ and Michael the ArchAngel one and the same person?

by booker-t in

i must admit that as a jw i never really swallowed this belief maybe because i was so young when i was really a staunch jw.

i would have born-again christians tell me that it was impossible for jesus and michael to be the same person and that jw's invented this doctrine.

fast forward to 2004 while i was reading a book on jesus i noticed that some of the early church fathers thought michael was jesus christ i almost fell out of my chair.

Greenpalmtreestillmine

Will Power,

how can something that doesn't exist be asleep?

They are unconcious but in God's memory, "Lord remember me when you come into your kingdom." Luke 23:42 It is the amazing grace of God.

How can a "re-creation" (as taught by JWs) be the same as a resurrection?

Not a "re-creation" but rather a "regeneration" as the NKJV calls it.

Ellderwho,

Obviously you hold that verse as literal, not figurative?

Yes.

Sabrina

25

Raphael and Jesus

by peacefulpete in

randel helms in gospel fictions has surmised that the story of jesus' appearance to mary at the tomb is dependent upon the raphael story in tobit.

at tobit 5-12 the character encounters the archangel raphael yet does not recognize him as such.

when he identifies himself, the human characters (tobias and wife) fall upon their faces.

I believe in keeping the scriptures simple as Jesus himself loved simplicity. The most recognized translations use "held" or "hold" in that Matthew scripture and not "cling," as in the John scripture. Is cling different than hold or held? Yes.

If someone in a pool clings to another that is very different than if they hold them. Mary clung to the Christ. She did not want to let him go. That is very different than when one touched him or held him.

Sabrina

251

Is Jesus Christ and Michael the ArchAngel one and the same person?

by booker-t in

i must admit that as a jw i never really swallowed this belief maybe because i was so young when i was really a staunch jw.

i would have born-again christians tell me that it was impossible for jesus and michael to be the same person and that jw's invented this doctrine.

fast forward to 2004 while i was reading a book on jesus i noticed that some of the early church fathers thought michael was jesus christ i almost fell out of my chair.

Greenpalmtreestillmine

LT,

So spirit body may be a bit of a misnomer, in this context? I'd agree.
That does then give rise to a query as to the meaning of 1Cor.15:44-49, however...

1Thessalonians 4:13-16

"But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of {the} archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are living and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord."

Before leaving the Witness I spent years studying the Bible on my own outside of the Society's thinking and literature and that chapter of Corinthians you referred to was one of my favorite studies. I believe every scripture in it can be understood and is in harmony with what Paul wrote in the verses quoted above. It would be great to have a verse by verse discussion of 1 Corinthians 15 here one day.

Hi Myelaine,

I don't believe in the immortality of the soul because I don't believe the Bible teaches that doctrine. The quoted verses above are clearly comparing the living and the dead, not the living and the still living but missing immortal souls of their brethren. If the dead, Paul spoke of, were actually living souls, where were these souls? They could not be in heaven with Jesus because Paul made it clear they would join Jesus at the same time the living would. The doctrine of the immortality of the soul opens more questions than it answers. In my opinion.

As for the Christ retaining his memories, yes he must have. But did he need an immortal soul for that? I don't know. It's comforting to think we go on and on. And it's hard to imagine that if we do not have an immortal soul how can God bring back the same person that died? Good questions and maybe someday someone will start a thread on that topic.

May I ask, what do you believe an immortal soul is? Do you believe every person who has ever lived has an immortal soul and so they are somewhere alive right now? I would be very interested in learning what you believe with regard to the soul. Though I have done some reading on it I've had very little interaction with people who believe in that doctrine and so I'm open to do some learning if you will.

Thank you,

Sabrina

251

Is Jesus Christ and Michael the ArchAngel one and the same person?

by booker-t in

i must admit that as a jw i never really swallowed this belief maybe because i was so young when i was really a staunch jw.

i would have born-again christians tell me that it was impossible for jesus and michael to be the same person and that jw's invented this doctrine.

fast forward to 2004 while i was reading a book on jesus i noticed that some of the early church fathers thought michael was jesus christ i almost fell out of my chair.

Greenpalmtreestillmine

Hi LT,

I believe Jesus was a spirit before he came to earth. A spirit as his Father is Spirit and as the other angelic creation are spirits. I don't believe in the immortality of the soul.

Sabrina

251

Is Jesus Christ and Michael the ArchAngel one and the same person?

by booker-t in

i must admit that as a jw i never really swallowed this belief maybe because i was so young when i was really a staunch jw.

i would have born-again christians tell me that it was impossible for jesus and michael to be the same person and that jw's invented this doctrine.

fast forward to 2004 while i was reading a book on jesus i noticed that some of the early church fathers thought michael was jesus christ i almost fell out of my chair.

Greenpalmtreestillmine

Kenneson,

If Michael was Christ before coming to earth then he was Michael when on earth and Michael when he went back to the Father. You can't have Michael living in heaven and Christ simultaneously living on earth because that makes two persons, not one. Whereas angels in the Old Testament appear to materialize, this is not what happened to the Christ as Scriptures say he was born of a woman. Gal. 4:4

What I meant was that the name Michael was I believe the name of Jesus before coming to the earth. Of course they are not two persons. For those who do not believe in the Trinity, like myself, Jesus had a life in the heavens in a spirit body before coming here, as all God's heavenly sons have also. Was God's firstborn heavenly Son's name, Jesus, meaning God Saves, prior to his coming to earth? Maybe some believe that I don't know. I just happen to believe his name was Michael.

Sabrina

25

Raphael and Jesus

by peacefulpete in

randel helms in gospel fictions has surmised that the story of jesus' appearance to mary at the tomb is dependent upon the raphael story in tobit.

at tobit 5-12 the character encounters the archangel raphael yet does not recognize him as such.

when he identifies himself, the human characters (tobias and wife) fall upon their faces.

Greenpalmtreestillmine

The word "touch" in John 20:17 can also mean: "to fasten one's self to, adhere to, cling to"

The NASB: "Jesus said to her, 'Stop clinging to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father..."

The NRSV "Jesus said to her, "Do not hold on to me, because I have not yet ascended to the Father."

The NJB "Jesus said to her, 'Do not cling to me, becasue I have not yet ascended to the Father."

The NKJV "Jesus said to her, 'Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father."

Mary's realization that her Lord was risen and standing right in front of her would not result in her simply "touching" him as Thomas was allowed to do. But rather in her emotional state of wonder and joy she most likely attempted to grasp on to him, to cling to him, to hold on to him. It was this action of holding on to him that would have prompted the admonition not to cling to him for he had not yet ascended to the Father.

Sabrina

251

Is Jesus Christ and Michael the ArchAngel one and the same person?

by booker-t in

i must admit that as a jw i never really swallowed this belief maybe because i was so young when i was really a staunch jw.

i would have born-again christians tell me that it was impossible for jesus and michael to be the same person and that jw's invented this doctrine.

fast forward to 2004 while i was reading a book on jesus i noticed that some of the early church fathers thought michael was jesus christ i almost fell out of my chair.

Greenpalmtreestillmine

Will Power,

I don't believe the word Lord in that scripture refers to Jehovah. I'm an exWitness.

LT,

Thanks, I appreciate your comments. I hope you know I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything just trying to explain why I believe as I do.

Ellderwho,

Colossians 1:15 says about the Christ, "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation." NASB

Sabrina

251

Is Jesus Christ and Michael the ArchAngel one and the same person?

by booker-t in

i must admit that as a jw i never really swallowed this belief maybe because i was so young when i was really a staunch jw.

i would have born-again christians tell me that it was impossible for jesus and michael to be the same person and that jw's invented this doctrine.

fast forward to 2004 while i was reading a book on jesus i noticed that some of the early church fathers thought michael was jesus christ i almost fell out of my chair.

Greenpalmtreestillmine

A list of the things Michael is said to do:

He is the only one who stands firm with Gabriel and helps him: "Yet there is no one who stands firmly with me against these {forces} except Michael your prince." Daniel 10:13, 21

He arises in a time of distress such as has never been before, likely the time of the end: "Now at that time Michael, the great prince who stands {guard} over the sons of your people, will arise. And there will be a time of distress such as never occurred since there was a nation until that time; and at that time your people, everyone who is found written in the book, will be rescued." Daniel 12

He disputed with the Devil over Moses' body: "But Michael the archangel, when he disputed with the devil and argued about the body of Moses, did not dare pronounce against him a railing judgment, but said, "The Lord rebuke you!" Jude 9

He and his angels throw Satan out of heaven: "And there was war in heaven, Michael and his angels waging war with the dragon. The dragon and his angels waged war," Revelation 12

Christ descends with his voice: "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of {the} archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first." 1 Thessalonians 4:16

If we believe the Christ is God, one third of a Trinity, then he cannot be Michael. (Though some Trinitarians do argue that he is so I leave it open.)

But if we believe the Christ to be the Son of God, his first born creation but not a part of a Trinity Godhead, then to me it seems reasonable to conclude that Michael may just be the Christ prior to his coming to earth as a man.

Sabrina

25

Raphael and Jesus

by peacefulpete in

randel helms in gospel fictions has surmised that the story of jesus' appearance to mary at the tomb is dependent upon the raphael story in tobit.

at tobit 5-12 the character encounters the archangel raphael yet does not recognize him as such.

when he identifies himself, the human characters (tobias and wife) fall upon their faces.

Greenpalmtreestillmine

This may make sense of the comment in John that Jesus did not want to be touched by Mary. He was like Raphael in being only ethereal.

Then why did Jesus say to Thomas, "Put your finger here and see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it in my side," if he was "only ethereal?"

Sabrina