I wonder sometimes about the high quality of the people who are dissenters and post at the places I've read. So many seem so articulate and well read. Is that a function of being antisocial and reading for comfort, of being willing to question and falling away, or of just being the type that gets a computer and posts? I don't know. I do know that as evidenced here, many of the "apostates" are polite and show empathy, whereas frequently, as in this case, the only self-proclaimed Witness is talking a little crude and aiming low. Strange. I guess that could be a type also, the kind of Witness that would post at H20 on a regular basis and remain a staunch defender would probably have to be a person like You Know. I know it isn't wise to generalise. Still, while I am sure that there are a lot of sincere, sweet and intelligent kids who stay in, there are so many of the same type leaving. The change in attitude towards college was probably a effort to stop the "brain drain." I don't suppose there is any way to know the numbers but in my own experience, most haven't gotten baptized, those who did are "nominal" witnesses, doing the minimum while they pursue a career and try to enjoy life. I don't attend and haven't attended for a long time on a regular basis, but that is just the way it appears from my neices, nephews and cousins. Another thing is that none of the ones I know who are in or out seem to want to have kids. Maybe all kids are just waiting longer for that. I wish the kids Godspeed and hope their families deal well with them. As you all have pointed out so well, it has been no picnic for them up to the time they can make the break. People like Fred in the car each Saturday probably hasten the departure a little!
Posts by Grunt
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95Do Kids Hate Being JW`s?
by Englishman inmy kid brother, tom, was born to witness parents.
he was something of a surprise package and my parents were delighted.
my father said that tom was:.
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A modest "Hello, everybody!"
by TheOldHippie inwitnesses.net's and (a couple of years ago) hourglass2's the old hippie modestly says "hello" and enters if not the building then at least the area.
live in europe, am - (i am sorry to say) - a countryman of the unholy trinity consisting of kent, jan h. and norm, and thus well updated with the practises of the observer-thing.
do not support the majority of what they think or do.
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Grunt
Hi Old Hippie,
While you and I are opposites in many ways, you from Northern Europe, me from Southern Alabama, you an ex-Hippie dope smoker, me an ex-clean and squared away Marine who wouldn't even smoke tobacco, you a communist and me a committed foe of communism, even in our current status, you have a daughter who is df'd while you are a Witness, I have a daughter who is a Pioneer while I am throughly disenchanted with the Society and consider myself an ex-Witness. You have no problems with WT theology and I have major problems with it. Still, I have always enjoyed your posts, and respect your points of view. You always seemed to genuinely care about others, and you seemed open-minded. It is good to have you here, and I look forward to your posts. There were a lot of good people at Wit.net, you and Morty were among my favorites. Once again, it is good to hear from you and to see your name on the board. Though I would much rather have a motorcycle than a horse, I have always found animal lovers to be my kind of people, starting with my wife who had a Schnauzer she dearly loved and I daily walked for eleven years. -
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A Different Perspective
by RedhorseWoman inthis tale was sent to me by someone on one of the e-mail lists i belong to.
i found it quite thought provoking.
perhaps you'll enjoy it, also.
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Grunt
Nice to find a little nook of the old neighborhood left! Hope you guys have a nice day. My wife and I took off from work to celebrate our 32nd anniversary today. Movie, some baked fish at Red Lobster to go along with our get healthy diets, maybe a trinket or two. 32 years ago in Jackson, Mississippi, we were married by a blind justice of the peace with a seeing eye dog. As we eloped we only had two people present to witness the event. I was 19, she was 21, had dated back when I was 15 and she was 17. It is really wonderful to know and love someone all of your life, to see them and yourself go through all the changes, meet all the challenges and still have one another and the prospect of many more years to come. I wish you all a happy and fulfilling day. I have enjoyed your company since finding this board. Thanks for being the kind of people you are. Simon, if you read this, thanks for hosting such a board.
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46
Advantages of being a JW
by ISP inclearly there is a great deal of anti-jw sentiment here and elsewhere for that matter.
such feelings are generally directed at those at the heart of the organisation and there are no such feelings for the rank and file who are often very genuine people.. in actual fact there are some advantages in being a fully loaded jw and to be fair it would be interesting to note them down.
they can be factual or whimsical or both.
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Grunt
Please forgive my tardiness in responding as we had to go to Atlanta and just got back in.
Thanks to all for their advice and patience. I don't tell this to spread my personal business and problems, I tell it in the hopes that it will help any lurker thinking of joining the Witnesses, to think again or at least be aware of how it can affect your family life. I tell it in the hopes that any honest hearted Witness might see mirrored in the story the pain they are inflicting on loved ones and stop. I tell it so that any open-minded Witness can see the flaws in a system sanctioned by the Society not to keep it clean but to shut up questioners and keep those in with blinders on. It is emotional blackmail of the first order. Seriously question anything and you lose your, _______________, fill in the blank. My problems, as shown here, are small compared to so many others. I am not looking for sympathy, just wanting the truth known and exposed. The only way Witnesses or non-Witnesses can know what is really happening to families because of the Society is if those being blackmailed speak up. I try to speak up loudly.Mommy, I am so very sorry about your daughter's illness. I am humbled by the situation you face. Words fail me. I will have her, and you, in my thoughts and prayers, as will my wife.
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46
Advantages of being a JW
by ISP inclearly there is a great deal of anti-jw sentiment here and elsewhere for that matter.
such feelings are generally directed at those at the heart of the organisation and there are no such feelings for the rank and file who are often very genuine people.. in actual fact there are some advantages in being a fully loaded jw and to be fair it would be interesting to note them down.
they can be factual or whimsical or both.
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Grunt
Like I said Waiting, there are so many stories here. Thank you for telling that part of yours. I always really enjoy hearing about the paths others have followed and the insights gained along the way. Thank God, for poetry, the beauty in nature, loving spouses, and good friends. When I first found all the other ex-JWs, I felt like the prophet that thought he was alone in resisting when it turned out thousands (seven?) of others hadn't bent their knees either. It helps to know there are intelligent, good people out there that have arrived at the same conclusions, and experienced some of the same things. Have a great weekend.
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46
Advantages of being a JW
by ISP inclearly there is a great deal of anti-jw sentiment here and elsewhere for that matter.
such feelings are generally directed at those at the heart of the organisation and there are no such feelings for the rank and file who are often very genuine people.. in actual fact there are some advantages in being a fully loaded jw and to be fair it would be interesting to note them down.
they can be factual or whimsical or both.
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Grunt
WEll, it has been a while now, and I mentioned it because when I hear people like DF who really believe that the Jehovah's Witnesses embody so much good, so much love, so much that is sterling and to be admired, it is my best answer to them. If you have been around Witnesses for very long then you have heard of so many similar situations and many so much worse. I don't know if you post or read at H20, but Snowball's situation was enough to turn your stomach with the Tower and its version of Christian Love. He had doubts about blood, had been posting about it, his wife found out, he wound up losing his wife and kids, and was disfellowshipped. Not for any biblical wrong, but for disagreeing with them on blood. He didn't take blood, didn't give blood, just had a different opinion on blood. He has all of my admiration for the way he handled things. If you go to his site (which if terrific) he also has some good information on cults. Thanks for your good wishes. The one this deal of mine has hurt the most is my wife, who was also hurt when I became a Witness. She had to put up with all the crap attending being married to a Witness then was so happy when I stopped attending and now has lost a daughter to the cult. My daughter e-mails her but never sees her. She threw my wife in when she cut me out. Though she lives about an hour away, my wife hasn't been in my daughters home in going on two years now. A mother who always put her children's needs far above her own, a loving tender heart, she doesn't feel welcome there with me and won't go without me. A poster here, Seven of Nine, put it so well when referring to her parents and the changes in the relationship, she called it having Stepford Parents. If you are familiar with the movie the Stepford Wives, you get the connotation. Witnesses being constantly admonished to seek "upbuilding" or "Good" association begin withdrawing from family as they get in deeper. The withdrawal becomes a rout when they feel threatened. They are taught that they know so much and in fact they know so very little, about religion and about their own history, frequently they don't even know what they currently believe. My daughter didn't know anything about the seven thousand year creative days, about any "naming the animals" phase in the Society's explanation of why things didn't happen in 1975. She didn't know that they didn't view Jesus as her Mediator. Her reply on that was, "Yes we do, I pray through him all the time." When I told her that the Society's view was different than her own she screamed and threw the phone down. This is a person that gave up a career, children and her parents for this group. She has a lot invested in their being right and doesn't want to see any handwriting on the wall. With DF, it sounds as though this is a person who has the Society on a pedestal and is eager to do penance to get back in and assume the role of "worshipful admirer" to their role of "humble greatness blessed with authority" and it makes me sad to see anyone prostrate themselves in front of people like this. It is DF's life, it just makes me want to interject my own experience if it will open his or her eyes a little. Thanks for the good wishes. I hope all of yours are happy, well and free of any cults. I do hope mine, including my parents, will be one day. My parents are still their own people, will skip a meeting in a heart beat to take care of company. I am really grateful for them and for my relationship with them which is real close.
When you have people of the caliber of Seven, Waiting, Frenchy, Mommy, Snowball and so many others leaving and leaving at great cost, it bears scrutiny to see why. I believe with all my heart that the best and brightest are leaving in droves. Thank goodness the kids are mostly fleeing as soon as they are able. I hope it continues until the Organization is empty. DF, I wish you well. Thank you again Yank, for the good wishes. -
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Advantages of being a JW
by ISP inclearly there is a great deal of anti-jw sentiment here and elsewhere for that matter.
such feelings are generally directed at those at the heart of the organisation and there are no such feelings for the rank and file who are often very genuine people.. in actual fact there are some advantages in being a fully loaded jw and to be fair it would be interesting to note them down.
they can be factual or whimsical or both.
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Grunt
DF, as I read your statements above, I had to resist the desire to quickly counter them despite the title of this post. Instead I would like to share a really great quote from the Awake magazine of Feb. 22, 1999. It really meant a lot to me when I first read it and I have quoted from it many, many times since. First, I would like to give you a little feel for the situation I was in that made it seem so special to me. My daughter who had always been very close to me and whom I had always tried my best to help in any way I could, had written a month or so earlier and begun a bible discussion. She was a pioneer at the time or had just finished pioneering. Anyway, in the course of this discussion I told her the story of the congregation made up of mostly Special Pioneers that I had attended upon first becoming a Witness. I warned her of the price of thinking the time was "so close" and I told her of the sacrifices they had made to serve where the need was great, selling homes, giving up good jobs, moving to backwoods Alabama and trying to get as many people as possible in the "Ark" before the "Doors closed" as they liked to say. Sadly with the passing of '75 many became disillusioned and let it put their lives in a tail-spin. Over the next ten years almost all got divorced, and left the Organization. I then asked my daughter just what her understanding of the 7000 year creative days was, and just where she thought we were now, was it the time between the creation of Adam and the creation of Eve when the animals were being named? I never got an answer to that. My daughter returned my car by slipping the keys under my door with a thank-you note while we were gone. In another note she left at the same time she told me she would have to make some "adjustments" in our relationship as I was destroying her faith. The adjustment was to try to cut me out of her life, in favor of "her most important relationship" which was with Jehovah. My true story about our congregation coupled with a question she couldn't answer well, threatened her faith. Hence the notes. This happened the night before her brother who was down from New England was having surgery. She hadn't seen him in a long time, but forfeited that as it would have put her in contact with me. He wound up having to have surgery in a hospital forty miles from her home, and she didn't come, as I was there. It hurt my wife, who was already so worried, more deeply than I can tell you. It was in the waiting room of the hospital while waiting for my son to see the Dr. that I found the five month old magazine. I read it and it was saying to do just the opposite of what my daughter had done with me. I found some of the quotes to be really great. The front page showed two men in a park on a bench having a discussion, and the bold print caption underneat says: SHOULD YOU DISCUSS RELIGION? Considering the circumstances it was ironic to say the least. Here is my favorite quote from the magazine, though there are many good ones:
Francis Bacon, a 17th century English philosopher, essayist, jurist, and statesman, advised searchers for truth "To weigh and consider." And an early U.S. President, Thomas Jefferson, said: "Reason and free inquiry are the only effectual agents against error.......they are the natural enemies of error." So if we are genuinely searching for truth, we will "weigh and consider" and pursue "reason and free inquiry."
Reason and Free Inquiry. The only effectual agents against error. The natural enemies or error. A great quote that I wish all Witnesses would listen to and follow.
If only they practiced what they preach.
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JW Dictionary
by thinker inwarning !.
the following "dictionary" may be very discomforting to true believers of jehovah's organization.
if you ask too many questions about these things you are told " jehovah will make it all clear in time.
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Grunt
I have enjoyed the definitions very much. I have a couple of others to address:
Pure Language - The goobledy-gook published by the Perfect Organization through its imperfect men, a bunch of old men in Brooklyn. The Pure Language is often funny in its archaic expressions but never laughed at. The old men in power are out of touch and certainly not a part of "The World" but don't tolerate laughter well.
Remnant - Same bunch of old men in Brooklyn.
The Bride - Same bunch of old men in Brooklyn.
Anointed - Same bunch of old men in Brooklyn, only lately has also been used as "genuine" or "truly" when refering to older people making this claim (like the old men in Brooklyn) and the lack of the aforesaid adjectives are a jab at younger people (people not in their 70's) who are "Partaking."
Profess to be Of the Anointed - Claim to be members of "Bride." To be viewed with skepticism if under 70.
Partake - To eat of the unleavened bread and drink of the wine at the annual Memorial. Most people see this as every Christian's right, in the "Truth" only the "Bride" have Jesus as Mediator and only they are to "Partake" which signals that they are "Future Kings and Priests" and member of the "144,000" of the lion-like Watchman class. All "Other Sheep" attend the "Memorial" to watch the "Anointed" partake. This is hard as most congregations don't have any. Lately more younger people (under 70) have been partaking and when they do, instead of it signaling an honor for them it signals they should be viewed with suspicion as not being "Truly Anointed."
The Truth - Dual meaning, can mean the Jehovah's Witnesses as a whole or it can mean whatever the old men in Brooklyn are currently teaching (see posts above for tenses of Truth.)
The Organization/The Society - dual terms refering both to the entire body of witnesses and at the same time refering mostly to those in charge of the group, a few old men in Brooklyn really.
Mother - Same bunch of old men in Brooklyn who petend the term refers to the Organization
Future Kings and Priests/144,000 - Same old men, but throw in a few thousand around the world who pretend to the same calling as the old men in Brooklyn but have no power, save that of being future rulers of the Earth.
Slave - Buzzword for the same old men, by normal definitions it would be the rank and file who do all the work.
Food at the Proper Time - Whatever the old men in Brooklyn say
The World/Worldlings - Phrase refering to normal people. Not in favor currently as it makes those in the Truth look like they are in a Cult. The old men in Brookly who control everything hate to have it look like a cult. If Witnesses hang around Worldlings or celebrate any Worldly holidays, they will be seen as Dead and not talked to by anyone, unless of course, it involves money.
Tacking - lying
Theocratic Strategy - lying
Other Sheep/numerous other derogatory names - lower class witnesses who are not members of the 144,000. Sometimes refered to as those "ten men holding the skirt of a Jew" with the Jew of course being the old men in brooklyn or those around the world claiming to be a member of the Bride Class.
Discipline - cutting off your family and friends to shut you up and make you tow the line. In other circles it would be known as intimidation, blackmail, extortion or if used against member of the Truth, persecution.
Running Ahead of the Organization - Term used just before Discipline is handed out. Implys a lack of humility and the rejectioin of Food at the Proper Time and Waiting on Jehovah. Like a warning shot across the bow the use of this phrase before possible Discipline means "back off and shutup or somebody gets hurt!" when used to explain Discipline it has the connotation of an obituary, as in he died of Running Ahead and therefore is spiritualy dead of starvation by not getting his Food at the Proper Time from Jehovah/Mother's Table. Message also understood in this use is, don't talk to this person, they are dead to you! Unless of course it involves money.
DA'd - Disassociated. This person has either left of his own freewill, slowly drifted away, or has become an "Apostate" but hasn't done anything to be "Disfellowshipped" for, yet. Or in some cases he is willing to make a big stink over it and it is best just to leave him alone as he might make the "Organization" or congregation look bad, or, worst of all evils, take them to court and cost them bad publicity and MONEY.
Disfellowshipped - Kicked out. No one is to talk to or even greet this person, unless of course it involves money.
Apostate - Anyone who was a Witness and now is opposed to the "Organization." Also anyone who was a Witness and joins another religion. Most people who are DA'd or Disfellowshipped for reasons other than immorality or weakness of the flesh, are to be viewed with extra suspicion as they are probably Apostate. Apostate is the worst curse word a Witness can call you. It conjures up raw hatred and fear of the unknown, for you obviously knew what they know and left. Apostates are seen as able to corrupt a witness in seconds given the opportunity. Apostates are feared almost as much as Demons.
You know, it is kind of hard to stop once you get started!!! As with most cults of long standing the Jehovah's Witnesses have a large vocabulary of words to make what they do seem alright. Hard to belive I was ever taken in by this bunch. Family influnce is what I will blame it on. As is the case with most of their converts. Please forgive the length of this post and these terms. I really enjoyed writing them and just got carried away.
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26
MDS I wanna talk
by mommy insir i do not know you or claim too.
this world is a funny place, and the people in it are even stranger.
some people get validation from their families and others get it from outside of their families.
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Grunt
Well spoken, RedhorseWoman, I tend to ignore charlatans. Like You Know over at H20, they aren't really going to answer and they are never looking for the real answer, only for an answer that will get them out of a spot. The truth is not what they are after. It is all ego and argument and a pretense to knowledge they don't have. Smoke, mirrors and horse manure. Wendy, I enjoy your posts.
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46
Advantages of being a JW
by ISP inclearly there is a great deal of anti-jw sentiment here and elsewhere for that matter.
such feelings are generally directed at those at the heart of the organisation and there are no such feelings for the rank and file who are often very genuine people.. in actual fact there are some advantages in being a fully loaded jw and to be fair it would be interesting to note them down.
they can be factual or whimsical or both.
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Grunt
This is a good subject. I have to really fight being angry at the organization but I did benefit in some ways from them.
I had always read the Bible, but hadn't ever researched a subject at a time in it like I did with the Trinity when I first began studying.
I learned a lot about different bibles, King James and so forth and learned to appreciate the different versions and their interpetations.
I, like Wendy/Mommy really liked the feeling at the assemblies, I really did feel love for all present.
As has been mentioned, it felt good to be so certain of everything. Being born a man, being raised in the South, being in the Corps, I was already misled into a good bit of false pride, so I am not sure that thinking I was one of a small group who REALLY knew the TRUTH was that good for me, but I enjoyed the feeling. Let me add that having been married for a long time to the sweetest woman in the world, I now realize that men really are made from dirt and that women are a little smarter and a lot sweeter.
I think the thing I liked best was teaching others about what I considered the truth. It was nice to think I could save lives. It was also nice to have it all wrapped up so tidy and nice and know that you yanking brands out of the fire just before the door of the Ark closed. Not being willing to teach 1914 and the chronology was the reason I first stopped going in service.
Like Waiting, I came in after marriage, and I can find nothing positive to say about the agony I put my wife through compromising and refusing to compromise on so many areas. I guess the only good that came out of it is we both appreciate how smooth things are without the religious arguments. If I had only known then what I know now, I would still have a real relationship with my daughter. It is a wonder my wife doesn't hate me. Of course I was urged NOT to compromise at all by some at the Hall. Hmmm. I should erase this but won't. I did say something good. Having crossed the desert I appreciate water.
I keep saying more that winds up being negative and erasing it so I will stop here. I think a lot of us became Witnesses because we were and are idealists. I think a lot of us stopped for the same reason.