Their loss, Red, in more ways than one. They lost in that they didn't regain you as a "sister" and even more sadly they lost the freedom that you might have led them to.
Posts by Grunt
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15Fred,the Preaching Work,+the WTS 'batting slump'
by ISP inthe preaching work ,fred and the wts 'batting slump'.
in a thread below, fred, in a quite daniellesque manner, sought to detract from ray franz's credibility because ray did not promote the wts' preaching activity.. firstly i have to say that fred is not in the easiest position.
he is a wts apologist of sorts and whereas he might have some support on some other boards like great crowd or wol where his non-sequitors would go quite undetected, he finds it hard going here.
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15
Fred,the Preaching Work,+the WTS 'batting slump'
by ISP inthe preaching work ,fred and the wts 'batting slump'.
in a thread below, fred, in a quite daniellesque manner, sought to detract from ray franz's credibility because ray did not promote the wts' preaching activity.. firstly i have to say that fred is not in the easiest position.
he is a wts apologist of sorts and whereas he might have some support on some other boards like great crowd or wol where his non-sequitors would go quite undetected, he finds it hard going here.
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Grunt
I will take that as a commitment, Atticus. Shall we say Alexander City, Alabama when the opportunity arises? I will look forward to it.
As you know I had intended to try and go out once a month and make myself available to be witnessed to. They tell me service is DRY right now, it would both me and the poor Witness a lot of good if I could make his or her day a little more interesting by causing them to think a little. You, Atticus, with your reasonable approach, and lawyerly understanding of the position of the Society on say, the mediatorship, among other things, if you encoutered an intelligent Witness could really start the old cogs spinning. I will be looking forward to our outing. I was looking at a paperback book you gave me on "Where is The "Great Crowd Serving God?" today and thinking I wish I understood all of that as well as you.Waiting, I can think of no better car group to go with than some on this board. I would be honored to go in service with you. Think how good it would feel to be the person that helped someone like CPiolo's wife to ask the questions that should be asked, to help that person recognize the Tower for what it is. Though I was sincer, I can say that I am much more eager to talk to a Witness now than I ever was to talk to a householder back then, except of course for the preachers. It was always fun to get them to explain the trinity. Wow, the more I think about it how nice that would be if we only could. I'd want to take a lot of breaks just to hear all the stories. Wouldn't it be fine? I Garontee You (pardon me Frenchy) we could put the hay down where the goats could get it.
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97
Hello...Hello...Hello (cont) #3
by Prisca inwell someone had to do it, so it might as well be prim & proper prisca to do the honors in the sex forum...... .
this thread is for all newbies to introduce yourselves.
whatever you feel happy to reveal about yourself.
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Grunt
Hi CPiolo,
I really enjoyed your post and envy you your travels. I'd love to see South America. Sounds as though you were in a nest of Witnesses even in high school. Please forgive me if I am putting my nose where it doesn't belong, but I think you are fortunate to have your wife. She sounds like a quality individual:
"my wife is a very good person who tries her best to do what's right. The problem is she isn't allowed to follow her own conscience as to what that may be. It must come from the Faithful and Discreet Slave. She's kind, generous, and loving, and that makes up for much"
If you look at the numbers there is an EXTREMLY good chance that without any interferance she will "fall away." With you there as a loving and understanding person who displays a lot of the qualities that the Witnesses don't, openmindedness and such, her chances are better than ever. If she is close to the people in your hall then if it is possible I would move. You said,
"her going to elders for advice about our relationship puts a big damper on what I share with her. It creates a distance between us that prevents our marriage being what I'd like it to be."
To me my marriage would come first. If there are other reasons too I would use them, if not I would tell her that I felt estranged and wanted to be closer. A move away from controlling family or religion can help, I did it. It helped a whole bunch. I gained about twenty pounds off the Cajun cooking, but it was good for my marriage. It might make her turn to you more and it could be that she wouldn't connect with a new congregation or have a desire to tell private matters to the new elders. I would also take her on as many trips and such as possible, maybe do some things on a regular basis that would keep her away from the meetings, camping, bowling, something that put her around someone besides Witnesses. If you can think of something that she loves, all the better. Maybe her having already been out would help. I would not, repeat would not, argue about religion with her. I was the "Believing Mate" and my biggest regrets in life are the fusses I had with my wife over my religion. No matter what she said, I drug it back to the trinity, hell-fire, the paid clergy, racism in other churches. It did no good and was bad for us and for my kids. I imagine you have done plenty of that already. She is going to have to see it for herself. You can't do it for her though your understanding and the love you feel for her can help tremendously.
I was blessed with a wonderful wife who stuck by me through all of it and I can't begin to tell you how much I appreciate it now. She was the good Christian, I was the narrow minded cult member who knew it all and really knew nothing. I admire her so much for putting up with me and compromising with me. I was advised by the elders to demand more in regards to my children, but I did compromise with my wife. Maybe your wife will to for your son. If not, that is a tough one. The less he goes the better, the more time you spend with him and your wife the better. What happens now could affect him later. I have temporarily lost a daughter, she didn't go in until she was in college and married, and I pray for the same thing I told you above. So many drop out, please God, let her be one. I am trying to be kind, understanding, never talk about religion (which is easy as I so rarely see her, weddings, reunions and such) I did refuse to allow her to disfellowship me and made a bit of a scene about it which did make things better, long story. Still, since then I have tried to be real passive and wait hoping for the best. I wish you all the best, and the same for your wife and son. If you can get past it, it is just one more bond you and your wife will share, one more hurdle you will have overcome together. Good luck.
GruntP.S. I used to live in Escondido, California, loved the area, Ramona also. Once again, best wishes for all of you
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97
Hello...Hello...Hello (cont) #3
by Prisca inwell someone had to do it, so it might as well be prim & proper prisca to do the honors in the sex forum...... .
this thread is for all newbies to introduce yourselves.
whatever you feel happy to reveal about yourself.
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Grunt
The last thing any of your posts are is boring. Thanks to all of you for the snapshots into your situations.
neyank, my son introduced me and I wound up buying about three, gave all those away and had to buy more! I always tend to give away things I really like, I bet I have given four or five copies of the Lewis and Clark Expedition, just gave away a book on Cortez's experiences in Mexico. Boomerangs are a lot of fun and a lot more difficult to make come back right to you than I realized! I have one that goes WAY out there and several others including a three bladed quick catch. Got them from Colorado Boomerangs I believe it was. Do you have some?
Please pardon the sidetrip into boomerang country.
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15
Fred,the Preaching Work,+the WTS 'batting slump'
by ISP inthe preaching work ,fred and the wts 'batting slump'.
in a thread below, fred, in a quite daniellesque manner, sought to detract from ray franz's credibility because ray did not promote the wts' preaching activity.. firstly i have to say that fred is not in the easiest position.
he is a wts apologist of sorts and whereas he might have some support on some other boards like great crowd or wol where his non-sequitors would go quite undetected, he finds it hard going here.
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Grunt
I couldn't agree with you more, ISP, now is the time for the WTBS to do as Coolhand Luke was advised to do in the movie of the same name. "Lay low and build time." Hnmmmm, only they would misunderstand the build time part. As long as the only people they talk to are disinterested and noninformed householders who just want to shut the door then they might do alright, but if they happen up on the house of someone familiar with what they believe and have believed and with the changes and disorder prevalent in the last few years, well, time for that strategic withdrawal. "No sir, I can't explain just where we are in regards to the 7000 year creative day, uh, yeah, well, I never heard about naming any animals but we might be in that time period, no, I didn't know about changes in the Disgusting Thing, what Disgusting Thing? No not that or seperating the sheep and goats and uh, listen I was homeschooled I would rather not talk about ice ages and stuff like that ok? Tacking? You mean like on a bulletin board?? Beth Sarim??? No, uh, we have only had one Faithful and Discreet Slave, oh yeah, Russell huh??? Are you sure, oh you got that in print huh, well, uh, A pyramid??? On his grave??? I hardly think he would have, well, sure enough, that's it huh??? Maybe, but uh, I , I think I heard a horn, my car group is calling me, no, I can't come back as I am booked and no I don't know anything about where the Great Crowd is serving, never heard of which part of the temple...no, never heard of Naos, what's that? You want to talk about dates, lengths of generations?!? I really need to go. Sure, I'll be back one day, maybe, no you can't call me. Bye, I'm gone!!! No, not cow's blood or any other kind!!! .....sound of an engine.
Used to be I would have some come to the door. It was kind of hard to wait for them to knock and then hard to talk for salivating so. They haven't been back in years. My neighbors have had to put signs on their doors, primitive signs, "No Jehovah's Please" and hear I sit eager, and never get a knock. Or even old used magazines like I used to get. Its like I am MARKED or something! The last one I had got all confused and so I suggested he call his friends in for help, and they sat their all twisted up like pretzels 'till they could make a good escape, and haven't been back. Arrogance and ignorance don't play well together. They think they know so much, when in fact they know so little. They get nervous after a while, wondering what else you are about to tell them they believe or have believed that they don't know about. It would be comical if it weren't so sad. Preaching the same thing all around the world is hardly something to brag about when it is wrong, and when you, the man in front, don't understand what you are teaching or where you got it. The hard part from our point of view is setting our phasers for just stun. It is hard to lightly tap when you are carrying a sledgehammer. -
97
Hello...Hello...Hello (cont) #3
by Prisca inwell someone had to do it, so it might as well be prim & proper prisca to do the honors in the sex forum...... .
this thread is for all newbies to introduce yourselves.
whatever you feel happy to reveal about yourself.
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Grunt
Hello to all those new on the board, and if I am allowed, being somewhat new myself, Welcome. I am glad you are here and I hope that I never offend any of you with anything I say. I am always polite, or try to be, and always honest, or try to be. I am just a tad irritated with the Boys in Brooklyn for some of the stunts they have pulled over the years and I do like to open the blinds and let the light in. If I am ever wrong, please correct me as the big problem with the Leaning Tower (there I go) is that no one offered any constructive criticism when they started going wrong! Well, anyway, I won't get into all the details right now, but I've come a long way baby and wouldn't go back for all the world (or Paradise Earth for that matter) please speak your mind, back your words with more than emotion and keep an open mind. I'll try and do the same. Oh uh, I was baptized in 1971, walked away without ever being DA'd or DF'd back in about 80, have two great kids I raised, though one has a little New York Frost on her, and a wonderful wife who was never "in" and had to to put up with me while I was and suffer with me after I left. That and several decades of sweetness spells love. I wish you all the same. Did I mention I like boomerangs, motorcycles and jet skis??? I do.
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Six things Jehovah hates; yes, seven
by Grunt in1. lofty eyes -.
february 15,.
1991, watchtower article you were bought with a price.
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Grunt
Atticus!!!!
GREAT to see you on the boards again!!!
To those of you who don't know him, Atticus is the guy that gave me my copy of Crisis of Conscience, got me all worked up and mad at the Society by showing me the [not, all men] the Watchtower had inserted to help explain that awkward verse in Timothy, led me to H20 and then, very healthily, moved on with his life. Welcome, and I hope you post every now and then despite all the balls I know you are juggling right now.
Yes, Atticus, I am still down here rowing. Like Ben Hur I am waiting for the right moment to stand up, shove these shattered chains into the orifices and nether regions of Brooklyn and crawl overboard. I just hate to leave while that big bully-boy is still beating the time out for those still in chains. I think you will like this place when you find time to visit. -
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Six things Jehovah hates; yes, seven
by Grunt in1. lofty eyes -.
february 15,.
1991, watchtower article you were bought with a price.
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Grunt
There are six things that Jehovah does hate; yes, seven are things detestable to his soul: lofty eyes, a false tongue, and hands that are shedding innocent blood, a heart fabricating hurtful schemes, feet that are in a hurry to run to badness, a false witness that launches forth lies, and anyone sending forth contentions among brothers
1. Lofty Eyes -
February 15,
1991, Watchtower article “You Were Bought With a Price.” There we read
the following statements:God first arranged for 144,000 heavenly ‘priests to our God to rule as
kings over the earth’ with Christ Jesus. (Revelation 5:9, 10; 7:4; 14:1-3)
Through them the benefits of the ransom will gradually be applied
to mankind over a period of a thousand years.—1 Corinthians 15:24-26;
Revelation 21:3,4. (par. 6)
“So God’s servants know what this world’s rulers do not. They know Jehovah’s purposes and his seasons… Since Jehovah’s servants of today obey him as ruler, God’s holy spirit also reveals to them what season it is from his viewpoint. Amos 3:7 says: “The Sovereign Lord Jehovah will not do a thing unless he has revealed his confidential matter to his servants the prophets.”
The Watchtower April 15. 1986, page 18.2. A false tongue -
w60 6/1 352 Questions from Readers ***
Thus the Scriptures show that for the purpose of protecting the interests of God’s cause, it is proper to hide the truth from God’s enemies.The Society's attorney, and former vice resident, Hayden Covington was being questioned about those 67 years (according to the Proclaimers book) that the Society incorrectly taught that Jesus' Second Coming (invisible presence) occurred in 1874. The following testimony explains why Jehovah's Witnesses have "unity of belief"...
Q: It was promulgated as a matter which must [have been] believed by all members of Jehovah's Witnesses that the Lord's Second Coming took place in 1874…?
Covington:: It was a false statement or an erroneous Statement in fulfillment of a prophecy that was false or erroneous.
Q: And that had to be believed by the whole of Jehovah's Witnesses?
Covington: Yes, because you must understand we must have unity…
Q: Back to the point now. A false prophecy was promulgated?
Covington: I agree to that.
Q: It had to be accepted by Jehovah's Witnesses?
Covington: That is correct.
Q: If a member of Jehovah's Witnesses took the view himself that that prophecy was wrong (which it was) and said so, he would be disfellowshipped?
Covington: Yes… Our purpose is to have unity.
Q: Unity at all costs?
Covington: Unity at all costs…
Q: *A unity based upon an enforced acceptance of false prophecy*?
Covington: That is conceded to be true.
3. Hands that are shedding innocent blood -
Dr. Jardine asked, "Do you realize that you could die if you don’t take a blood transfusion?"
"Yes."
"And you’re willing to do that?"
"If that’s what it takes."
His mother, also present, asked, "Why are you taking such a stand?"
Adrian replied: "Mom, it’s not a good trade. To disobey God and extend my life for a few years now and then because of my disobedience to God lose out on a resurrection and living forever in his paradise earth—that’s just not smart!"—Psalm 37:10, 11; Proverbs 2:21, 22.
The biopsy was performed on March 18. It showed that Adrian had a large lymphoma tumor. A subsequent bone marrow biopsy confirmed the fear that he had developed leukemia. Dr. Jardine now explained that a very aggressive chemotherapy program with blood transfusions was the only way Adrian could possibly live. Adrian, however, still refused blood transfusions. Chemotherapy was started, without the transfusions.
. He was baptized there September 12; he died the next day, September 13.
"His funeral was the largest that the funeral home had ever had—nurses, doctors, parents of patients, classmates, neighbors, and many of his spiritual brothers and sisters from his own and other congregations. As parents, we never realized all the wonderful qualities that became evident in our son as he endured his many trials or the kindness and thoughtfulness that were part of his developing Christian personality.
There is no question that the Watchtower's blood policy needlessly kills JW children. Something as simple as a transfusion of platelets is denied to JW children with the following results:
1. JW children with cancer end up having to stop their chemotherapy. Result - they die
2. JW children with leukemeia simply bleed to death. In the last fifty years childhood leukemia has gone from being 100% fatal to having a cure rate of over 75%. Truly a modern day miracle. Not in the JW community, however, were the death rate remains near 100%! Why does the WTS insist that critcally needed medical care be denied to these children?
Consider this: Platelets are among the very smallest components of blood weighing in at only 0.17% of blood volume.
Here's an illustration. Take a dollar as a whole, now take 1% of a dollar, now get out a saw and cut that penny into 5 pieces. One of those pieces is to a dollar as platelets are to blood! Consider the shocking hypocrisy and murderous implications of this policy. The Watchtower is perfectly willing to permit all of the following:
all components of plasma - 55% of blood volume hemoglobin - 13.5% of blood volume
The WTS will permit and yes sanction the collection and storage of cow blood and the extraction of major blood protein(hemoglobin), but these children
are refused a tiny component of human blood that can save their lives. Bear in mind the Mosaic law clearly calls for the pouring out of a slaughtered animal's blood on the ground.
JW children have no voice and no choice. The WTS, the local elders and their parents indoctrinate them and lead them to the grave. Denying them their most elementary human rights.
Anyone who questions whether or not this really is happening in the Jehovah's Witness community need only check the May 22, 1994 Awake magazine where these children are hailed as martyrs and where the WTS implies that the death toll has reached into the thousands
Pax,
joel (partial quote of his post)
4. A heart fabricating hurtful schemes -
The BOE letters of 7-20-98, 3-14-97, 8-1-95, 2-3-93, 3-23-92, all state that when the accusation of child abuse is made, the legal department of the watchtower should be contacted for direction as to what to do. Since 1992 that has been the requirement, so there has been no current change when it comes to child molesters, that is old news. What is the purpose in contacting the legal dept? Is it to find a way to help the victim? Sadly, the answer is to find what the law requires only and nothing more. The wt will comply with local laws to a point that keeps them from being prosecuted for the criminal act of not reporting child molestation. You may think this is well and good, but allow me to offer a few variables.
1. The victim comes forward after becoming of legal age. No report to authorities.
2. The child is not clear as to times dates and places and the elders make it appear he/she is unsure. No report to authorities
3. Another person brings forth minor evidence that another child may be being molested after a pedophile has molested children in the past. No report to authorities.
4. The local state does not require church officials to report the matter. No report to authorities.
5. The victim is of legal age the pedophile confesses and is repentant. No report to authorities.
6. The victim is of legal age the pedophile confesses and is disfellowshipped. No report to authorities.
7. The victim is of legal age the pedophile outright lies, no action taken. No report to authorities.
8. The local elders give an incomplete report to wt legal to protect a friend. No report to authorities.The wt legal dept is just that, a group of lawyers who protect the watchtower and legally have little interest in the victims. If you were to review the BOE letters from 92-98, in not one place does it state that elders should encourage victims or parents of victims to go to local police. Instead they are cautioned about discussing the matter with anyone. Elders will invariably discuss the bringing of reproach on the congregation or Jehovah, thus discouraging any report being made to authorities. In the event a report is made the wt legal will advise zero cooperation from church officials using “ecclesiastical privilege” as a basis to offer nothing in the way of support. If any in the congregation are approached they will be advised from the reproach angle and will often back away from any help. Hence the victim is victimized again and left on there on with little support or help from the congregation.
(from Silent Lambs post)5. Feet that are in a hurry to run to badness -
W94 7/1
10 Food on the table of demons is poisonous. Consider, for example, the food dispensed by the evil slave class and the apostates. It does not nourish or build up; it is not wholesome. It cannot be, for the apostates have stopped feeding at Jehovah’s table. As a result, whatever they had developed of the new personality is gone. What motivates them is, not holy spirit, but vitriolic bitterness. They are obsessed with only one aim—beating their former fellow slaves, as Jesus foretold.—Matthew 24:48, 49.
Remember Eve, and also Lot’s wife! (Luke 17:32; 1 Timothy 2:14) Let us never give ear to what the apostates are saying or doing. Rather, let us be busy building people up and loyally feeding at the table of Jehovah!
Advertize! Advertize! Advertize! (from the Judge)
6. A false witness that launches forth lies - see [not, all men] in quote below
w79 11/15 Benefiting from "One Mediator Between God and Man" p. 2
20 What, then, is Christ’s role in this program of salvation? Paul proceeds to say: "There is one God, and one mediator between God and men [not, all men], a man Christ Jesus, who gave himself a corresponding ransom for all."—1 Tim. 2:5, 6.
w79 4/1 Questions from Readers :
Reasonably Paul was here using the word "mediator" in the same way he did the other five times, which occurred before the writing of 1 Timothy 2:5, referring to those then being taken into the new covenant for which Christ is "mediator." So in this strict Biblical sense Jesus is the "mediator" only for anointed Christians.
The new covenant will terminate with the glorification of the remnant who are today in that covenant mediated by Christ. The "great crowd" of "other sheep" that is forming today is not in that new covenant. However, by their associating with the "little flock" of those yet in that covenant they come under benefits that flow from that new covenant
February 15,
1991, Watchtower article “You Were Bought With a Price.” There we read
the following statements:God first arranged for 144,000 heavenly ‘priests to our God to rule as
kings over the earth’ with Christ Jesus. (Revelation 5:9, 10; 7:4; 14:1-3)
Through them the benefits of the ransom will gradually be applied
to mankind over a period of a thousand years.—1 Corinthians 15:24-26;
Revelation 21:3,4. (par. 6)KM May, 1974 said:
Reports are heard of brothers selling their homes and property and planning to finish out the rest of their days in this old system in the pioneer service. Certainly this is a fine way to spend the short time remaining before the wicked world's end. 1 John 2 :17.Thinking people would rather have smallpox than vaccination, because the latter sows the seed of syphilis, cancers, eczema, erysipelas, scrofula, consumption, even leprosy and many other loathsome affections. Hence the practice of vaccination is a crime, an outrage and a delusion."
1929 The Golden Age 05 01 5027. Anyone sending forth contentions among brothers -
si Bible Book Number 38-Zechariah
24 In chapter 13, verses 2 to 6, Zechariah illustrates the loyalty that to this day marks Jehovah’s organization. This must transcend every human relationship, such as that of close flesh-and-blood relatives.
W 93 10/1
15 Regarding them, the psalmist said: "Do I not hate those who are intensely hating you, O Jehovah, and do I not feel a loathing for those revolting against you? With a complete hatred I do hate them. They have become to me real enemies." (Psalm 139:21, 22) It was because they intensely hated Jehovah that David looked on them with abhorrence. Apostates are included among those who show their hatred of Jehovah by revolting against him. Apostasy is, in reality, a rebellion against Jehovah. Some apostates profess to know and serve God, but they reject teachings or requirements set out in his Word. Others claim to believe the Bible, but they reject Jehovah’s organization and actively try to hinder its work. When they deliberately choose such badness after knowing what is right, when the bad becomes so ingrained that it is an inseparable part of their makeup, then a Christian must hate (in the Biblical sense of the word) those who have inseparably attached themselves to the badness. True Christians share Jehovah’s feelings toward such apostates; they are not curious about apostate ideas. On the contrary, they "feel a loathing" toward those who have made themselves God’s enemies, but they leave it to Jehovah to execute vengeance.—Job 13:16; Romans 12:19; 2 John 9, 10.
SUMMARRY:
As I see it, from the way they fit the criteria, Jehovah probably hates the organization known as Jehovah's Witnesses. The problem with this post was keeping the examples limited, there are so many for each category. I love many individual Witnesses, my parents, my daughter, many other relatives and those whom I thought were my friends. I look down on this cult and shudder at the blood on its hands over kids like Adrian and the guilt it has to carry from causing family members to"illustrate the loyalty that to this day marks Jehovah’s organization. This must transcend every human relationship, such as that of close flesh-and-blood relatives."
So many children dead. So many people denying Christ as their mediator and letting the "144,000" take that spot, so many marriages and families shattered. Those bloody, bloody hands that are also daubed with printers ink. My thanks to those whose posts I borrowed from above. I save a lot of good stuff off this board that helps me deal with my own situation regarding the cult members I love despite their seeming "Perfect Hatred" of me as is taught them by the Jehovah's Witnesses. Those loving people who are eagerly awaiting Jesus' "Great War Cry."
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How about 10 favourite albums (er, cd's)
by amicus inhow about your 10 all time favourite cd's.
mine:.
beach boy's -pet sounds.
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Grunt
Wow, Amicus, you make me appreciate my freedom. I know we need the prisons, but they are depressing places to even think about. I used to have to go to Fountain (state prison in Atmore, Alabama) and buy and sell leather and finished products to and from the inmates for my dad when I was a boy. It was an eye-opener to say the least. It was pathetic then and it is still going now. I think Merle Haggard and Johnny Cash are great singers and their prison songs are among my favorites, Mama Tried with its line "I turned 21 in prison, doing life without parole" now sadly fits the brother of one of the kids I deal with. He murdered a couple who let him in to use their telephone, killed them for money to buy drugs with and then stole their car, Special Ed. kid with his vision stretching to the end of his nose. They had him double quick, and those poor, caring people were dead. They need places like the ones you are implementing. I can't imagine living like that, but can't imagine ever hurting someone who was trying to help me either. I enjoy your posts.
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38
TOLERANCE
by Frenchy intolerance.
i think the appearance of the now infamous danielle gives us reason for pause.
i admit that at first i took her at face value which is what we are all supposed to do.
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Grunt
Forget it of course. If it was someone I liked and respected then I would see it as just a lapse in judgement or warped humor. If it were someone like Gregg Stafford over at H20 bragging on himself and telling himself how patient he was, how masterful his arguements, and deserving of a better opponent, well that would lower your estimate even more now wouldn't it? Once Wit.net had a good idea about how to keep apostates out, ask them if they were apostates before they would let them post. It worked real well on most apostates as most wouldn't lie. Kind of funny really. I listed all the reasons that answering the questions SHOULDN'T bother me, lying being the Coin of the Realm in Watchtower Land at least coming out of Brooklyn, but when it came down to it, I couldn't lie about it. A number posted that they couldn't say the words either. Betrayed spouses probably hate lies too.