Posts by Caljuher

38

Are We Any Better Than the Witnesses?

by Caljuher in

i have just been on this board a short time.

i have been visiting it for years, however, via the freeminds site since i left the jws in the late 1990s.. but there is so much anger and pain and hatred--especially for people who still want to believe in some kind of god or religion--on this board that it doesn't seem to be so healthy of a place.

why so much hate?

Caljuher

Tyrone, you are right. Take it or leave it. I am leaving it, after a short time.

This is what you all enjoy, so more power to you. I have never felt so unwelcomed or hated since I left the Watchtower and those JWs...

49

Premonitions and Prayer - Explained!

by Seeker4 in

yesterday and today i had a couple of things happen to me that i think tie in well with why many people believe in the supernatural, or in their ability to foresee events.

yesterday, i had to travel a few hundred miles to do an interview for a magazine article, and i knew stormy weather was coming here in vermont.

i had a bad feeling about the trip and the possible weather complications, so much so that i actually called my insurance company and checked on my coverage.

Caljuher

Do you know what all this sounds like to me? Not like elevated speech, but argumentiveness for the sake of being arugmentive.

I have only been on this board for a short time, and I feel like I am back among the JWs and their judgmental attitudes again.

Seeker, you words are very cruel and hurtful to people who have faith. If believing like you do will make me act like you, I'd rather stick to believing in God and prayer.

This is not a place to send exJWs to. I will not be visiting here anymore...I am sure you people are so happy to hear that. Thank you for the hate.

38

Are We Any Better Than the Witnesses?

by Caljuher in

i have just been on this board a short time.

i have been visiting it for years, however, via the freeminds site since i left the jws in the late 1990s.. but there is so much anger and pain and hatred--especially for people who still want to believe in some kind of god or religion--on this board that it doesn't seem to be so healthy of a place.

why so much hate?

Caljuher

Thanks Gopher, but I am not talking about not having a forum for speaking one's mind. (Strangely people seem to think I have it in mind that I am talking about all or nothing...I'm talking about stopping people from commenting--good grief, that would be terrible! "Black and white" issues are also something I left behind).

I'm saying that people insult and hurt and continue to create damage to one another in ways that make me feel sorry for my fellow human. Like one news article put it, exchanging ideas onInternet boards can often be like attending a party and having people toss their drinks over you and even spit at you till you leave. Why do we think we can get away with acting like that on the Internet but not in person? Call me naive, call me idealistic, but if people can have their "theist/non-theist" wars here, then people, like me, can also trying to appeal to the minds and hearts of others to not let ourselves get torn apart in the process.

Besides whether we advocate one idea or another, honey attracts more flies than vinegar.

38

Are We Any Better Than the Witnesses?

by Caljuher in

i have just been on this board a short time.

i have been visiting it for years, however, via the freeminds site since i left the jws in the late 1990s.. but there is so much anger and pain and hatred--especially for people who still want to believe in some kind of god or religion--on this board that it doesn't seem to be so healthy of a place.

why so much hate?

Caljuher

Realone--I don't think it's the right thing to say that it's "sad" that some become atheists after leaving the Witnesses. That can really make a non-theist feel their life choices aren't of the same value as a theist.

5go, I agree with you that no one should be silenced. But that is not the same thing as insulting someone by being careless in regards to how we often minimalize their choices they make after leaving the Watchtower. There are more way to silencing than merely not allowing them to express their views. We often silence not by forbidding them to write or speak, but by striking at the heart of another human being.

And I wasn't saying are better than others in the sense that some people are superior to another, that would be ridiculous. I'm talking about the way we treat others. Why is it for some of us that everything is an attack? Maybe because the Witnesses did that to us...but for those of who aren't there anymore, this isn't happening. We can act better than the Witness dogma of judgmentalism, is what I am talking about.

Yes, people can be bigotted and prejudiced whether they are a JW or here on this board, but we cop out when we say "everyone else is doing it," aren't we?

38

Are We Any Better Than the Witnesses?

by Caljuher in

i have just been on this board a short time.

i have been visiting it for years, however, via the freeminds site since i left the jws in the late 1990s.. but there is so much anger and pain and hatred--especially for people who still want to believe in some kind of god or religion--on this board that it doesn't seem to be so healthy of a place.

why so much hate?

Caljuher

I have just been on this board a short time. I have been visiting it for years, however, via the FreeMinds site since I left the JWs in the late 1990s.

But there is so much anger and pain and hatred--especially for people who still want to believe in some kind of God or religion--on this board that it doesn't seem to be so healthy of a place. Why so much hate? It is hard, I know to move past the anger and pain, but we have to do so if we are ever going to find peace. And it isn't enough just to find peace for us, we need to help provide that for others who have the left or thinking about leaving the Watchtower.

I am hoping things will change here, especially after this post http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/22/default.ashx , but should I expect it? Why are we making each other on this board our enemy (theists versus non-theists)? Isn't that exactly what the Watchtower wants to promote its view of those who leave their ranks, that we can never have any peace outside of their religion? I think we need to prove them wrong and if it doesn't start in places like this board, then where?

49

Premonitions and Prayer - Explained!

by Seeker4 in

yesterday and today i had a couple of things happen to me that i think tie in well with why many people believe in the supernatural, or in their ability to foresee events.

yesterday, i had to travel a few hundred miles to do an interview for a magazine article, and i knew stormy weather was coming here in vermont.

i had a bad feeling about the trip and the possible weather complications, so much so that i actually called my insurance company and checked on my coverage.

Caljuher

With all respect to Seeker and those who hold his views, it does the same harm as the JWs do to others to tell theists that their beliefs are ridiculous or that they are foolish to believe in such things.

While I don't believe I can convince others the need for doing so, I believe what is needed on this board is respect for people and that we need to let go of our judgmental views of others--even if it is in angels and prayers. It takes courage to let go of hate and anger and hurt and promote healing, but we need to do this if we are to not only move on ourselves but to aid others to do the same. And this may mean giving people the dignity to believe as they do once leaving the Watchtower.

While I respect what Seeker is saying and where he is coming from, Seeker, you cannot prove angels don't exist or aren't watching over people or prayers don't work anymore than those who believe in them can. What you can prove to people who may misunderstand you is that you really have other people's best interests at heart. But this won't ever come across if we keep being so judgmental of other's beliefs. Didn't we leave that behind in those Kindgom Halls we once attended? Or are we still like those we left behind?

Unfortunately I believe people will hate what I've just written, and I am likely to have the equivalent of garbage thrown at me for what I just wrote, but so be it. I still think that deep down we really want to help one another, despite how it sometimes comes across.

49

Premonitions and Prayer - Explained!

by Seeker4 in

yesterday and today i had a couple of things happen to me that i think tie in well with why many people believe in the supernatural, or in their ability to foresee events.

yesterday, i had to travel a few hundred miles to do an interview for a magazine article, and i knew stormy weather was coming here in vermont.

i had a bad feeling about the trip and the possible weather complications, so much so that i actually called my insurance company and checked on my coverage.

Caljuher

I think a lot of what makes prayer seem foolish to some is the way people use it. Most people seem to see prayer as asking God for something. While this is something you will find instructed in Judeo-Christian writings like the Bible, it is a far too simple and somewhat ignorant understanding of the concept of prayer by even some very “religious” people.

The epitome of prayer is considered to be not asking God for something and having the prayer answered, but as great mystics have taught, communing with God in order to lose self and serve others. As Teresa of Avila once explained it, once when she was traveling by donkey on a mission, she was thrown from the beast after crossing a rocky riverbed. She claims Jesus told her: “This is how I treat my friends.” To which she replied: “And that is why you don’t have many friends.”

Mystics like John of the Cross, Teresa of Avila and others teach a very different type of prayer than what is being discussed and advocated in religions. Hopefully some of the bright points brought out here on this board in these discussions will help people see that it often isn’t prayer or God that is useless, but often it’s us who are so self-centered we only want our needs fulfilled or want our viewpoint to be proven right. When prayer doesn’t work according to some preconceived ideas (like held within the Watchtower) prayer suffers the blame instead of the definition of "what it should be."

7

two part question (s)

by bite me in

hi, i hope everyone had a nice weekend!.

okay, to my two questions.

i figure i do it this way, because it's annoying to post something and realize i wanted to do another post, but couldn't.

Caljuher

As for question #2, the concept of the Witnesses regarding the connection between faith and works is actually not outside of mainstream religion. Except for some Fundamentalists, Christian religion in general teaches that faith saves, but it also inspires people to do the right thing. Even the most strict Fundamentalist views tend toward that understanding somewhat, but it is a bit more complicated to explain fully here.

The Watchtower concept of "doing the right thing" or "good works," however, is what is at issue. Are the good works really public preaching, going to all the meetings,filling out service reports, belonging to the organization, etc.? Not that the Witnesses do not also care for people in practical ways, it is just that this type of care for people's needs are generally only toward those that Witnesses view as deserving, and such works are deemed less important than the aforementioned.

As a side note, people often confuse the words in James to be a contridiction of Pauline theology that teaches that works can't save people. While James uses the same word generally rendered "works," it doesn't mean the same thing as the useless works of the Mosaic Law Paul was writing about. That is why you can find renderings of James 2:26 as found in the New Living Translation: "Just as the body is dead wihtout a spirit, so also faith is dead without good deeds." These types of "works" or "good deeds" live side by side with faith. In fact, real faith doesn't exist without them...but actions in themselves don't prove there is faith.

50

Why Religion?

by hillary_step in

jw
friends

i have no issue with a person having a spiritual dimension, but i wonder why people have difficulty accepting that the religion that an individual makes up inside their head is no more or less worthy than the ones other people have made up in their heads.. why do people feel the need to have others tell them what to believe and how to think?

simplistic though this may sound, this is at the basis of all religion.

does religion scratch the itch of our insecurities?.

Caljuher

I think it is a sad part of ourselves (and I think we are all prone to it) that none of us like to be wrong…especially proven wrong. We all like to think that we see things right, that we have the clearest, sharpest and most correct view. Some religions, like the JWs, actually pander to this fault of ego. We have an elitist side to us that we often battle and gets in our way from being honest with ourselves and others.

So whether a religion is based on fact or fiction, it can’t necessarily be judged fairly on just the adherent and their point of view. How do we know that their view of their adopted religion has not been clouded by ego?

And what makes people advance some idea and then tell others that the idea must be adopted? The same can be said about ideologies or philosophies—it isn’t just religious philosophies or views that get forced on people. Marxism and Fascism are examples.

While some people may exercise religion on exactly what you say, I don’t believe it is true that all religion is based on what you claim it is. Was Mohandas Gandhi trying to advance the idea that religion should be forced on people or that one group of people was better than another? How about Mother Theresa of Calcutta? Was she, by making sure people weren’t left to die in the streets, doing so to advance an ideology to force others to think a certain way? Both these people’s actions and lives were motivated by their deeply held religious convictions. Are they examples of people doing things just because they had an itch of insecurity, or is it that others are insecure about adhering to a set of virtues that often take courage to follow?

As one author put it regarding at least one religion: “The Christian ideal has not been tried and found wanting; it has been found difficult and left untried."

23

FRAUDULENT door to door premise from the "Catholic" Governing Body

by Terry in

according to the organization with its governing body pronouncements of "truth", the bible was written for and directed to the chosen elite with the heavenly hope and not to the rank and file "other sheep.".

if this were truly so, would that not mean the admonitions to preach the good news of the kingdom would, logically, be directed soley to the chosen elite and not to the the rank and file as well?.

if the governing body possesses that magically spirit-directed message of truth--and they only--it would be irresponsible for non-anointed to take upon themselves work given to the chosen few, would it not?.

Caljuher

I've heard it mentioned by critics of the Watchtower that it's organization acts like a "poor cousin" of Catholicism. Whatever one's opinion of the Catholic Church is, the Watchtower can only dream of having as much organization, structure, or power.

That is why I think they are as oppressive as they are...they don't really have the power, kind of like those who are smart don't need to advertise it, and those who aren't but want others to believe they are constantly talk, trying to convince others they are. If you can't really hold your own Spanish Inquisition, you can at least smash others you don't like as much as you can.