Dave: thanks for your reply, I really enjoyed it. I agree with you on the points of logic fallacies ( a subject I have just begun diving more deeply into, as a means of exploring the foundations of post civilisation communication, post civ 'tribal' societies and the psychology/thinking that supports a sustainable and healthy way of being) and also the 'stop thought' mechanism. I've long been interested in uncovering my own blindspots and observing the reactions and responses I have when these are touched on: in this way I've been looking for patterns that can assist other people to move through their own blindspots and fallacies without the degrees of volatile reaction, rejection and upset that generally go along with the process. To my way of thinking, these things form part of the story of 'why civilised humans make such a colossally bad job of living on the planet and where the tribes got themselves stuck in a rut'. It's a long title, but the story intrigues me. :D
I have heard of Timothy Campbell's work but was unaware of the existence of a website: I shall call on the Oracle of Google and go exploring after this weekend, as we're househunting in the rainforest this weekend. Thanks for the heads up about it.
As to the off topic, I'm quite happy to share my experiences with you: in fact, I was talking with my sisters last night (as in by telephone, not ouija board or telepathy, heh heh heh) and I got onto the subject of our mother, who died of cancer last April. I was not close to our mother, who was extremely violent and abusive when I was a child (and I was the recipient of that abuse); over the years she settled down with regards to the violence but she was never a mother figure, which is why what's been happening these past few weeks had me really puzzled. I have been very aware of my mother's presence lately, to the point where I have felt at times that she was standing right next to me: I have been aware of her in a way that she never manifested in life and have felt very strongly that she was trying to get a message to me.
I asked my sisters about it and it turns out that they have been experiencing it too, to the point where one sister and her eldest daughter (who is 15 and also has our family's abilities) have been seeing an apparition in their house, in my niece's bedroom. My niece wasn't scared, she was simply aware it was happening. It's been happening for the past month. In addition, my sister has experienced multiple incidents since her father died (16 years ago, she is his only child) of strange things happening that clearly indicate she is being 'watched over'- one of the main ones is the 'leaping Santa', an ornament of her father's that periodically likes to dance, leap into the air and move itself around the shelf it sits on, sometimes while watched and other times not. It's a given in her home that the santa simply moves itself around: it disturbs her youngest to the point that my sis has put the santa in her own bedroom.
This is just one small example of the kinds of things that have been going on in our homes since we were all kids: my children are used to what we call 'sliders', etheric beings that are fond of turning up in any house I live in. My 10 year old recalls as a younger child playing with some of the 'strange little animals' that used to come out of the walls in one of our houses; she even recalls what is was like to hold some of them in her hand, as they weren't afraid of her and she wasn't afraid of them. I'm looking forward to moving to the country as sliders seem to dislike the constantly noisy house we are currently in and all of us are finding it a little odd not to have their presence around.
All my kids reported seeing people others couldn't see, from childhood; each of the children have different kinds of abilities in this area and are all comfortable with the 'otherrealms', ways of being outside traditional 'normal'. They all accept that I 'know' things about people, they have spoken in childhood of the places they remember being 'before' (and this was when I wasn't openly talking about such stuff because of being in the b0rg- even when I wasn't talking about it as if it were natural, it was still happening. When we *did* talk about it, I never attributed things to satan or satanic forces, because what was happening with my children was exactly what had happened to me as a child and I refused to label it as 'evil' or 'wrong' just because *other* people were paranoid).
Since childhood I've 'known' things, to the point that at one time my mother's born again group decided I had been 'annointed by spirit' to prophesy. This was fine for them up to the point where I started talking about things I *wasn't* supposed to know in the congregation, such as who was cheating on who with whom, what was actually going on in people's heads, etc: then I was labelled as possessed by the spirit of satan and had unpleasant exorcism experiences and a lot of stuff yelled at me. My mother was a religion junkie (tried everything but Catholicism and Islam, from memory) and this was my experience of every group.
I 'see' stuff, including auras, can 'see' where people are hurting on any level, can often 'hear' what people are thinking, I just 'know' things. I see sliders, have out of body experiences, used to astral travel all the time (often with my sister; it used to creep my mother out big time to hear the two of us discussing our night adventures together in the mornings. One of my younger sisters once told our mother about watching us 'fly out the window, like Peter Pan and Wendy'). My mother first started bashing me in response to my telling her at about age three that I 'didn't come from here' and that I could remember where I *did* come from.
So that's just a little of it. Do I think it's something outside possible human experience? Nope, not at all: I happen to see it like other things I can do, such as pick up languages without trying, learn by osmosis (which was the only way I learned things as a child), I taught myself to play classical piano from the age of 7. What others describe as 'paranormal' I just see as a different 'frequency' that some people are tuned to and others aren't: some people are very mechanically minded whereas others are not. Does this mean something is awry? It's just the way people are: it happens to be that in my family line, we're tuned to things that most other people can't see, but that indigenous communities were very familiar with.
It's an amazing multiverse and I don't have any rules about how things are 'supposed' to be, I just know how it happens in my and my family's experience. :)
rimfiredancing
JoinedPosts by rimfiredancing
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34
I'm curious- why 'god'?
by rimfiredancing ini know how i got sucked into the b0rg- i was a very spiritual, very young and very emotionally damaged 19 year old (raised in a violent on all levels home, the usual stuff) who was having- and had always had- a lot of 'supernatural' experiences that had caused my mother to declare me 'evil' (and try to get me exorcised on the odd occasion).
i'd become confused and was trying to work out if these things were, in fact, a sign of my rejection from 'god'.
if i'd known then what i know now about the christian god, i'd have told the jw's to stick it.
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rimfiredancing
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34
I'm curious- why 'god'?
by rimfiredancing ini know how i got sucked into the b0rg- i was a very spiritual, very young and very emotionally damaged 19 year old (raised in a violent on all levels home, the usual stuff) who was having- and had always had- a lot of 'supernatural' experiences that had caused my mother to declare me 'evil' (and try to get me exorcised on the odd occasion).
i'd become confused and was trying to work out if these things were, in fact, a sign of my rejection from 'god'.
if i'd known then what i know now about the christian god, i'd have told the jw's to stick it.
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rimfiredancing
jaguarbass: I fully grokk the zombie analogy, we use it a lot in our family as it's really applicable. There are a number of theories that endeavour to find the root cause of the insanity (Alan Carter's dopamine addiction theory, which is in essence a stress response, is one that looks at the situation with a view to 'what is actually going on here?'), but the bottom line is that it's getting to the point where possible explanations are becoming irrelevant: the ecological situation on the planet is going to lever a shift one way or the other.
Which is in part why I'm interested with regards to this particular blind spot in many people's minds: I'm always looking for ways to uncover my *own* blindspots and use the experiences of others to explore my own subjective view of the world. I'm even curious about the questions regarding life that we have, because they seem to emerge from a shadow space rather than from a joyous one: humans seem to really struggle with the actual experience of being *alive* and that seems to be directly linked to the absolute mess that they make of it.
"Where do we come from and why are we here?" seem to my observation to be *inward turning* questions that actually draw us away from the experience of the physical world and the beings around us. They create an immediate sense of disconnection and a following immediate sense of isolation, distress, dissociation and fear that then causes people to go off and do all manner of bizarre things, such as religion, civilisation, destroying their planet and each other, etc etc. We fear our singularity, the physical embodiment that we think puts us in isolation from *true* joining with another.
I have been wondering if this is a manufactured fear, a deliberately cultivated one. It certainly serves a multitude of very specific purposes. What if we existed, experienced life, without that fear, without that sense of isolation? What if we experienced life as being a unique part of a world matrix that existed simply to experience what it's like to be 3 dimensional? What would our way of being in the world look like then? From all my mind experiments around these possibilities, people become virtually psychosis free (psychotic in this instance being the way I describe how civilisation trains and causes people to behave), they lose all motivation to do harm to themselves or others and they become childlike in their willingness to engage with the world around them.
Curious, that. -
34
I'm curious- why 'god'?
by rimfiredancing ini know how i got sucked into the b0rg- i was a very spiritual, very young and very emotionally damaged 19 year old (raised in a violent on all levels home, the usual stuff) who was having- and had always had- a lot of 'supernatural' experiences that had caused my mother to declare me 'evil' (and try to get me exorcised on the odd occasion).
i'd become confused and was trying to work out if these things were, in fact, a sign of my rejection from 'god'.
if i'd known then what i know now about the christian god, i'd have told the jw's to stick it.
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rimfiredancing
eliveth: while I appreciate that you obviously believe in the bible, I honestly find your answers do nothing to address the observation that I made, which is *how people can still believe the bible after having read it*.
My reading of your post (and I'm aware my reading could be flawed) is that you seem to have done what others I know have done: you've changed *in your own mind* what's actually there. The scriptures, as far as I'm aware, are pretty plain on the subject of death, being killed by god, and what happens after death: the jews had *no concept whatsoever* of life after death. 'His spirit goes out, he goes back to the ground' is one that springs to mind. So, given this foundation, it is pretty obvious that in reading the genocidal accounts, god is a) not happy with his creation and b) decides he's going to do something about it. At *no point* in the accounts is there *any mention whatsoever* of their being destroyed in order to be shifted somewhere else for 'teaching'- "I will *wipe mankind out* is unequivocal language. The verse says he 'felt pain', because people appeared to be a bad idea. So he wiped them out.
The verse you quoted is very ambiguous, so any inferences made would, at least to me, be interpretations and 'matters of faith'. I'm not interested in faith, which seems to allow all manner of rationalisations, manipulations and distortions that allow the person doing the 'interpreting' to skew things whichever way they see fit. How is this any different from what the jw's do? It isn't. It all hinges on the claim of the person interpreting that *they* have the 'correct' version of things.
god murders people in the bible. Lots of them, in lots of different ways. As other posters have pointed out, he also praises incest, murder by rape, child sacrifice and a whole heap of other things. Given what you say about its ambiguity, I think that god perhaps doesn't actually have a clue? If the claims of all powerful that are made for god are actually accurate, why can't he write a book that is clear and makes sense? It's meant to be a manual for negotiating life, but it's actually more like those manuals one gets where the English has been translated from the Japanese by a native Swahili speaker who has done two terms of Japanese at school. Not terribly helpful.
And therein is part of the problem, because as soon as this point is made, the cry of 'matters of faith' goes up and it all goes down the drain. Was god actually unable to foresee the confusion that would arise from utterly ambiguous writings?
You mention that we put wrongdoers in prison, that that's where mankind puts them. Actually, the Hebrew god *ordered them to be killed*. Yup, he said they were to be stoned to death, depending on their crime. Many people today are executed for their crimes. Some people cite the scriptures as reason for their punishment schedule, because god started the trend. Even if your interpretation is correct, *it's actually not stated as such in the bible* but rather you are interpreting scriptures to make up the picture.
Instead of interpreting, can you show me the scriptures that *clearly state*, not suggest, what you are saying? If it isn't in the bible, why not? Why would a just and loving god leave people confused as to what he actually means? If people who were wiped off the face of the earth are actually somewhere else, why isn't this clarified instead of being left to dubious and debatable interpretation? Is this god's modus operandi, confusion and conflict, and if so, what does that say about the kind of god represented?
I'm not actually interested in going over specific scriptures because of the whole 'open to interpretation' thing: I'm interested in the scripture being read just as it is, discussed just as it is, in context with the writing around it. As it stands, the scriptures that you have used to support your argument actually don't read the way that you are interpreting them. god clearly says, wipe them off the face of the earth, nothing more, so anything else is something that you are interpreting by adding other scriptures to the story and saying 'these apply here because of this'. The *bible* doesn't infer that at all.
What do you read when you stop interpreting things to make it easier for you to believe in it? How is the god of the bible read then? How do you feel about god when you stop rationalising scriptures together and simply read that god didn't like how things were going with humans and wiped them off the face of the earth by drowning them? Drowning is a distressing way to go, as well as punishing the earth for the 'sins' of humans: if god felt so strongly about it, why didn't he just remove the life force from the condemned? There are instances in the bible of him doing that, so why the 'global' deluge, dramatics and cruel way to do things? Wasn't he upset at the supposed cruelty of humans? Was the whole point to strike terror and fear into the remaining humans and make them frightened of what could happen to them if they didn't do things god's way? Sounds like god works like the b0rg, if that's the case.
I understand that faith has its own definitions: I'm coming from the perspective of someone who observes a great deal of harm being done in the name of god by people who all think they have exclusive understandings of the 'correct' interpretation of the bible. The world is full of examples of what happens to any organisation where the guidelines and rules are murky and ambiguous... -
34
I'm curious- why 'god'?
by rimfiredancing ini know how i got sucked into the b0rg- i was a very spiritual, very young and very emotionally damaged 19 year old (raised in a violent on all levels home, the usual stuff) who was having- and had always had- a lot of 'supernatural' experiences that had caused my mother to declare me 'evil' (and try to get me exorcised on the odd occasion).
i'd become confused and was trying to work out if these things were, in fact, a sign of my rejection from 'god'.
if i'd known then what i know now about the christian god, i'd have told the jw's to stick it.
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rimfiredancing
kinjiro- I'm familiar with Laurel K. Hamilton's faerie series. It wasn't my cup of tea, being basically the same premise of the Anita Blake series except without the angst about having a great deal of sex and sexual partners.
Simply because ideas are used from one history (as Laurel has done for her fey series), does that then imply that all things mentioning these aspects are forever after ganked from a novel? Laurel K. has done some admirable *research* into the history of the Tuatha De Danann ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tuatha_Dé_Danann ) as well as other original faerie histories ( particularly of the Unseelie Court, which is a sort of 'dark side' of the faerie world, compared to modern twinkles and star shaped wands that never actually existed in the histories). She did not, in fact, make it up out of her own imagination.
What now the less than subtle suggestion that I read some Merideth Gantry books and decided 'yep, that's what I am?'
Some families have reputations for 'having the Sight' or whatever ways the locals want to describe it. It's no big thing when it comes down to it: there is little understanding of how these things work, so is it so impossible that such things could be genetically inherited? The human genome has a ratio of 'junk DNA' that range from 80 to 90%, which means that there is a LOT of DNA that science currently has NO idea as to why it's there. For me, it's not a big issue, because I have grown up with this.
I appreciate that you have a different world view. I don't appreciate it being assumed that my world view is a cardboard pastiche because it's different. -
34
I'm curious- why 'god'?
by rimfiredancing ini know how i got sucked into the b0rg- i was a very spiritual, very young and very emotionally damaged 19 year old (raised in a violent on all levels home, the usual stuff) who was having- and had always had- a lot of 'supernatural' experiences that had caused my mother to declare me 'evil' (and try to get me exorcised on the odd occasion).
i'd become confused and was trying to work out if these things were, in fact, a sign of my rejection from 'god'.
if i'd known then what i know now about the christian god, i'd have told the jw's to stick it.
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rimfiredancing
Pioneer Spit (*laughing* I love that name btw, it makes me grin every time I see it):
I too have come to the conclusion that both the bible and the society it is predominantly connected with are not only anti family, but anti life. I totally agree with you about how much the bible has hatred of family as a theme, as well as many other hatreds. I have been wondering if the bible was created as a tool for enforcing civilisation as the dominant paradigm over tribalism; tribes don't make good slaves, submissive subordinates, passive workers or any of the other things that civilisation needs in order to function. I do know that it's been used as a tool to dominate indigenous cultures all over the world.
Not a nice book, nor nice god, from my reading- but then, what dictator ever IS nice? :/ -
34
I'm curious- why 'god'?
by rimfiredancing ini know how i got sucked into the b0rg- i was a very spiritual, very young and very emotionally damaged 19 year old (raised in a violent on all levels home, the usual stuff) who was having- and had always had- a lot of 'supernatural' experiences that had caused my mother to declare me 'evil' (and try to get me exorcised on the odd occasion).
i'd become confused and was trying to work out if these things were, in fact, a sign of my rejection from 'god'.
if i'd known then what i know now about the christian god, i'd have told the jw's to stick it.
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rimfiredancing
frankiespeakin- by Indian, do you mean Native American? I don't have any traceable ancestry but I have been told by others, as well as experienced for myself, that I do have links in some ways with several Native American traditional societies. Odd things happen around me. I'm travelling to a tribal gathering in April and am looking forward to spending time with elders and teachers of several different indigenous groups, Native American, Australian Aboriginal, Maori to name three.
I'm also currently exploring linking up with any other Rom groups here in Australia, if there are any. -
34
I'm curious- why 'god'?
by rimfiredancing ini know how i got sucked into the b0rg- i was a very spiritual, very young and very emotionally damaged 19 year old (raised in a violent on all levels home, the usual stuff) who was having- and had always had- a lot of 'supernatural' experiences that had caused my mother to declare me 'evil' (and try to get me exorcised on the odd occasion).
i'd become confused and was trying to work out if these things were, in fact, a sign of my rejection from 'god'.
if i'd known then what i know now about the christian god, i'd have told the jw's to stick it.
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rimfiredancing
serotonin_wraith:
<quote>"There's no weakness on my side, but sometimes facts need defending."\</quote>
Methods also differ. I don't defend, I explore and discuss- what is the basis of defense? I have yet to find one that isn't based on the 'power over' structure, the foundations of which partly rely on the adherance to 'one world view'. I simply don't adhere to this view- quantum physics indicates that there could very well be as many universes as there are people on the planet. I personally hold that there is a unique view that every person possesses of the universe they find themselves in, and I don't need anyone else to 'validate' mine in order for me to be accepting of myself and my own experiences. This is why I explore, not defend.
<quote>If by saying you and your family have special powers you're not showing off, I can only apologize. But don't expect anyone to believe you until you offer something more than a statement which you don't want to be examined in any great detail.</quote>
If you can point me to the sentence in which I claimed 'special powers' for both myself and my family, I'll be surprised. *You* are the one both using these words and attributing the attitude to me, neither of which I personally either use or feel. It seems to me that you have taken offense by my simple statements of 'this is what I am and experience' and decided that this means I think I'm superior to others. Do you normally conduct your conversations based on immediate assumptions? Interestingly, I have found the same attacking form of defense in relation to people making assumptions about me based on my level of intelligence and how they interpret that in relation to what they feel about themselves. I've been bashed because people have insisted that I feel like I'm 'better' than they are simply because I am intelligent. School taught me a great deal about how the general population thinks.
At no point in my post did I also ask for or indicate expectation that anyone 'believe' me. I wasn't and am not interested in other people's 'belief'. I didn't *make* the post about my abilities, I have explained twice why I mentioned them, I'm not going to explain it again. I wasn't asking for discussion, debate or analysis about my experiences and abilities, my post was *about biblical interpretation*. My post *continues* to be pertaining to *biblical interpretation*, on which subject other posters are writing about. This isn't a thread about psychic ability or the non-existence thereof, it's about *biblical interpretation*; although again I cite acupuncture as just one instance of something 'working' that western science cannot explain in relation to your repeated references to 'proof'.
As an aside: I wonder what proof of fairies one would consider authentic these days, given special effects, photoshopping and the like? Probably wouldn't be satisfied until one is caught in a jar and miserably displayed, probed, examined, molested and eventually dissected for the satisfaction of the 'superior' humans. Blechh. Thank goodness they're too quick to be caught. :) -
34
I'm curious- why 'god'?
by rimfiredancing ini know how i got sucked into the b0rg- i was a very spiritual, very young and very emotionally damaged 19 year old (raised in a violent on all levels home, the usual stuff) who was having- and had always had- a lot of 'supernatural' experiences that had caused my mother to declare me 'evil' (and try to get me exorcised on the odd occasion).
i'd become confused and was trying to work out if these things were, in fact, a sign of my rejection from 'god'.
if i'd known then what i know now about the christian god, i'd have told the jw's to stick it.
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rimfiredancing
serotonin_wraith: I initially mentioned my experiences as part of my brief explanation of how *I* got sucked into the b0rg, explaining (again briefly) my confusion over the nature of them, my distress at finding they *didn't* end when I came 'into the truth' (and all the implications that most fellow ex-b0rg could make about that, knowing the stock standard reactions to anything even remotely 'off the radar') and how things have been since leaving. Part of the reason for mentioning these again was because of the biblical view of such things (which I also made reference to): I at no point was asking for analysis regarding these experiences, because I am almost entirely comfortable with them (and what discomfort I have is linked directly with the echo of christian religion's views of such things in my head, which I am dealing with in my own way and with the loving support of people who actually care about me). What I *was* asking about was the perspective of the bible by people who have *really* read it *and still believe it*.
There is a difference between being defensive and particular ways one deals with certain situations. I don't have any need to be defensive, I was simply being clear (in my way of being so). Being defensive is actually a position that indicates weakness of thinking, in my view, and neither my partner nor I have any interest in it. I've also had the way I speak and think be described as 'arrogant' because I think things through, 'use big words' and don't take things at face value. Defensive, arrogant- both personal interpretations.
I find your comment re my disinclination to 'prove' myself as offensive as such things usually are. I find that people are completely unwilling to take on the burden of 'proving' that the paranormal *isn't* possible, but of course that's besides the point as far as they consider it. My partner is a highly gifted scientist, engineer, roboticist and computer programmer amongst other things; here is what he says about the general population's idea of the existence of 'scientific proof': it's a flawed misunderstanding of how science actually functions. NO serious scientist would be silly enough to claim 'proof' of something, that's simply what the general population *thinks* they're doing.
In science, there is a methodology that goes through hypothesis, prediction and testing: if the predictions emerge through testing as suggested by the hypothesis, then the information is presented to a wider scientific community for further testing and verification. If it passes this in enough positive percentage degrees (given the room for errors, differences in testing conditions etc) then the hypothesis is moved up to the 'theory' category. *There is NO level of 'proven' in science, because science understands that in order for something to be 'proven' it would have to be tested under every possible opportunity in the universe*.
Scientists don't talk about proof, only lay people do. THAT is why I have no interest, because 'proof' is impossible to achieve, there is only theory- and considering that scientific 'truths' are *constantly* coming under question, particularly due to quantum physics, such things as the paranormal are even *more* debatable. There are certain sectors of the scientific community that argue quantum physics itself is more closely akin to 'magic' than science, and they hotly debate the information coming from that quarter. Hell, scientists/researchers can't even agree from one year to the next which fats are 'good' for you and which aren't! So much for 'proving' anything.
I'm a *thinker*, I'm not interested in 'faith' of any kind. I'm totally up for curiousity about my experiences, but you weren't expressing curiousity, you didn't ask questions about my experiences, you questioned my perceptions, my state of freedom and my 'wisdom'. I don't know if you are aware, but the two forms of questioning are very different things. Then in your final paragraph you use the word 'flaunting': (American Heritage Dictionary- flaunt (flônt) Pronunciation Key v. flaunt·ed, flaunt·ing, flaunts, v. tr. ; To exhibit ostentatiously or shamelessly: flaunts his knowledge. See Synonyms at show.Usage Problem To show contempt for; scorn. ; v. intr. To parade oneself ostentatiously; show oneself off.).
That's a pretty loaded word. I wrote that paragraph to demonstrate that what I experience is *not* unusual in my family and that it's actually something my extended family experiences as a group, ex JW or not. How this is 'flaunting', I have no idea, unless you assume that by talking about it I'm somehow making myself superior to others, which is then just supposition on your part and your comment is then more to do with your thinking than mine. -
34
I'm curious- why 'god'?
by rimfiredancing ini know how i got sucked into the b0rg- i was a very spiritual, very young and very emotionally damaged 19 year old (raised in a violent on all levels home, the usual stuff) who was having- and had always had- a lot of 'supernatural' experiences that had caused my mother to declare me 'evil' (and try to get me exorcised on the odd occasion).
i'd become confused and was trying to work out if these things were, in fact, a sign of my rejection from 'god'.
if i'd known then what i know now about the christian god, i'd have told the jw's to stick it.
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rimfiredancing
Hortensia: I'm always curious about how people's minds work. In this case, I'm wondering if they're doing the same mental contortions that the b0rg do, and that fundamentally this isn't a question about the bible but more about humans as a species? Such as, having a trite explanation/rationalisation (ie The Devil) for all the utterly self-and planet- destructive things people do. It does seem to be something that is linked to 'civilisation', because for thousands of years *before* civilisation people lived in variously complex, sustainable societies without much inclination to self destruction (for example, the Australian aboriginals are considered to have a culture that was *at least* 40,000 years old before invasion).
So, is religion (as opposed to spirituality) simply a product of emotionally and psychologically diseased minds? It's an intriguing thought. -
34
I'm curious- why 'god'?
by rimfiredancing ini know how i got sucked into the b0rg- i was a very spiritual, very young and very emotionally damaged 19 year old (raised in a violent on all levels home, the usual stuff) who was having- and had always had- a lot of 'supernatural' experiences that had caused my mother to declare me 'evil' (and try to get me exorcised on the odd occasion).
i'd become confused and was trying to work out if these things were, in fact, a sign of my rejection from 'god'.
if i'd known then what i know now about the christian god, i'd have told the jw's to stick it.
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rimfiredancing
void-eater: why is that? Is it because I've been inadvertantly offensive? Because the topic is boring for most people? Because people don't like to think about things like that much? Because there is actually no foundation for seeing a benevolent god in the bible and so people don't want to talk about it?
Just wondering, you see- I like to explore certain things... :)