Posts by gumby

58

Did Jesus have a BEGGINING?

by gumby in

jw
friends

in a thread called" can any jw answer this" by jerome, alan f had stated that the term.

everlasting to everlasting applied only to the god of israel.

he could find no scripture in which this term applied to jesus.. i found some good info.

gumby

Wow folks! tooooooooooooooooo much!
Alan...you are the master dude!

In all seriousness, you are taking me backwards....which is good.
Your diligence has moved at least one guy, to re-think what could be a wrong conclusion.

I have a commentary called THE NEW INTERNATION DICTIONARY OF THEOLOGY.
R. Franz quoted from it quite a bit in a personal letter to me. Much of what this commentary said on the subject of the Trinity, I AM, the Soul, etc. was contrary to orthodox beliefs.

I assumed at the time, that since this commentary differed a bit from others views, perhaps the writer was a liberal radical, not to be trusted, or was one of the few that hold to opinions of less popularity on these subjects.

The big problem is this, (for me that is), if you are correct.......How does God view the millions who view Jesus as God?

Why would he allow his identity to be so obscure.
Would it be proper to attend churches that insist on these teachings for salvation, as to the dubs, with their similar reasoning.

This may bring some back to the conclusion..."there must be a group who teaches the truth on these matters"
I would NEVER become that brain-dead to think that way again, on a matter such as this.(that salvation answers, are in the hands of some group)

As for your comments on HOW the NT writings BECAME as part of the bible cannon is good news for me.
I have never yet had an explanation as to WHO decided WHO'S writings/letters, were to be part of the bible.

It would seem one would have had to be appointed by God himself, or to by someone who God had talked to, telling that person the writers letters were approved.

All scripture is inspired of God....the question....who DECIDED they were scripture.
Perhaps this is the reason the Catholics claim to be the oracles of God since the Holy Writings were entrusted to them....(as they see it)

Alan, I respect your honest observations.

All others have helped also,

Moxy ,I enjoyed your thoughts on progression and feel MUCH of that is true...product of environment

Dakota, much of what you said and quoted has to be looked at from the Trinitarian view point of Jesus 'full-man/ full-God theory to see why he spoke of himself in a subjective sense.

Taking all things said by Jesus and his followers at face value, will get you in a brain rat nest.

No...I'm not losing my religion....just having the guts to be open to.... "WHAT IS TRUTH"?

Thanks to all who are putting their best thoughts into this..........it's a big question!

9

Earthquake!!

by Scully in

jw
friends

eastern ontario & western quebec just experienced an early-morning earth tremor!!.

if it had been much stronger (it felt like it was maybe 2.5 - 3 on the richter scale), i would have been pretty scared!

i was just waking up and felt a rumbling like a train all around me, and the walls around me began to shake back and forth!!

gumby

there will be earthquakes in one place after another". Does the conditioning EVER go away???

Does the conditioning ever go away? I wish the crap it would!
I've been out for 7 years and the CONDITIONING haunts me daily!
I't hard to re-learn/re-think things....isn't it?

Glad your OK!

58

Did Jesus have a BEGGINING?

by gumby in

jw
friends

in a thread called" can any jw answer this" by jerome, alan f had stated that the term.

everlasting to everlasting applied only to the god of israel.

he could find no scripture in which this term applied to jesus.. i found some good info.

gumby

DK "All things FROM God, and THROUGH Jesus.

The scriptures say the same about God..all things were made for him AND THROUGH him. ( I'll find it if you need it.)

As for Headship....the head of the woman is man, head of man is christ, head of Christ is God.
Nothing here speaks of one being Greater in value,power,knowledge.

This headship thing is POSITIONALLY.
The bible say's..."he, being in the FORM of God....humbled himself and took the form of man.

So positionally, Jesus as man, didn't know the day or hour, said the father is greater than he was, not MY will but YOUR will be done.
These quotes by him makes him no LESS in value than the Father.

I think your arguments are good and we could go on and on.

I think to make this easier....let's see if we can prove Jesus had a begginning,... was created.

The scripture you used about him being "the begginning og God's creation can also be translated..."the origin" of creation.
This would make more sense with John 1:3 and colossians 1:15-18

If I am wrong.....I will change my beliefs on this!
I have no fear to say I'm wrong. Why believe a lie?

This, who is Jesus thing, was one of the biggest stuggles I had, when the relearning experience thing took place, upon leaving the witnesess.

The depressing part is this; This debate has went on for centuries, with both parties seeing it their way of seeing it.
The argument goes on and some get nowhere.

Jesus asked a good question when he said "who do YOU say I am?

58

Did Jesus have a BEGGINING?

by gumby in

jw
friends

in a thread called" can any jw answer this" by jerome, alan f had stated that the term.

everlasting to everlasting applied only to the god of israel.

he could find no scripture in which this term applied to jesus.. i found some good info.

gumby

Dakota Red.... To be given, the giver should be in a somewhat superior position, as I see it.

In the explanation of the TRINITY (if you wish to call it that)
Jesus is the one who exemplifies God. He is usually spoken of in terms of willingness to Honor God.

He is the WORD of God. I see nowhere he is LESS, if he gives something to God, or asks Gods will to be done and NOT HIS.

He and the father are one. They are always together in scripture (NT).

It is much EASIER to believe Jesus is NOT God, however too many scriptures do not rhyme were this to be so.

Most ALL of God's titles are also given of Christ.

Is a son LESS than his father? Why?

Only if he were created would he be LESS.

22

What is the most unBiblical teaching of the JWs?

by jerome in

it has been said that the jws hold to many beliefs that are unnsupported scripturally and inforce many 'unwritten' rules which they refer to as 'principles'.. i would like to start off the thread with what i think is the most important unbiblical teaching that they need to promote inorder to exist.. the watchtower teaches that "a prophet is able to make mistakes while he is speaking for god and still be considered as true.

mind you that these are not slips of the tounge but doctrines and predictions that have been promoted for years and have only been modified only after the watchtower had no choice but to change them.. this in my opinion is the most unscriptural teaching that the watchtower promotes.

if it werent for this teaching then the watchtower would most definately have to be marked as a false prophet!

gumby

Most UNBIBLICAL teaching?

That salvation is dependent upon being being one of Jehovah's Witnesess, instead of Grace from God through your faith in christ, that ANY can attain, APART from their organisation.

5

Weirdest door to door experience (fiction)

by Unclepenn1 in

jw
friends

ok, this is a follow up to kenneson's wonderful post about the strangest door to door experience you have ever had.

i thought it would be fun to start one that was make believe.

you know, spin a tale that is fantasy but make it sound real, (or make it sound fake).. example[fake one]- one time i was with some brothers on fs and after waiting at a certain door for a couple of minutes, out of nowhere, a group of ninja's jumped out and went ballistic on us.... or something like that.. anyway, i thought it would be funny.

gumby

LB...you win dude! Hands down.

5

Weirdest door to door experience (fiction)

by Unclepenn1 in

jw
friends

ok, this is a follow up to kenneson's wonderful post about the strangest door to door experience you have ever had.

i thought it would be fun to start one that was make believe.

you know, spin a tale that is fantasy but make it sound real, (or make it sound fake).. example[fake one]- one time i was with some brothers on fs and after waiting at a certain door for a couple of minutes, out of nowhere, a group of ninja's jumped out and went ballistic on us.... or something like that.. anyway, i thought it would be funny.

gumby

Just in case I am the only one to post....how could I lose?
Here goes.....One time I was with some brothers on FS and after waiting at a certain door for a couple of minutes, out of nowhere, a group of ninja's jumped out and went ballistic on us.

How's that?

You didn't say I couldn't use yours!

5

Another Pedophile story

by gumby in

jw
friends

hi guys and girls.

i sent my dfed sis a thread from the board here that was a pedophile topic and she replied back with stories of her own.. makes you wonder how much of this goes on that we never here about!.

here is what she wrote:.

gumby

Bill,
I asked my sister to get in touch with you already, but thanks for the info.

58

Did Jesus have a BEGGINING?

by gumby in

jw
friends

in a thread called" can any jw answer this" by jerome, alan f had stated that the term.

everlasting to everlasting applied only to the god of israel.

he could find no scripture in which this term applied to jesus.. i found some good info.

gumby

AF....excellent job my friend, and thanks for the time you must have spent to address this. I have seen similar arguments with a commentary that speaks much of the same material you had.

Sometimes I guess certain things will not be clear.
I am sure if you were to get together with Ryrie, you could both go round and round for hours...and get no where.

Thanks for the info. and I plan on giving it to a pastor and let HIM disect it and I will let you know....unless I bail on the whole deal.

Dakota Red....quote:...then shall the Son also himself be subjected to him that did subject all things unto him, that God may be all in all.

Question. So isn't this saying, BEFORE he hands it back to the father, he isn't in subjection yet? It does say...THEN the son shall hand it back and SUBJECT what was subjected to him.

Moxy...don't be such a smart ass!

58

Did Jesus have a BEGGINING?

by gumby in

jw
friends

in a thread called" can any jw answer this" by jerome, alan f had stated that the term.

everlasting to everlasting applied only to the god of israel.

he could find no scripture in which this term applied to jesus.. i found some good info.

gumby

In a thread called" Can any JW answer this" by Jerome, Alan F had stated that the term
EVERLASTING TO EVERLASTING applied only to the God of Israel. He could find no scripture in which this term applied to Jesus.

I found some good info. on this:

Micah 5:2 says of Jesus; " who's origins are from old, from ancient times".
What does this mean?

Charles c. Ryrie, a notable theologian states that the words, "FROM OF OLD" is the same translated word used of God and his eternity in Hab.1:12.

Also John 8:58 uses the word "I AM" of Jesus, and in EX:3:14, it is used of Jehovah.
When Jesus claimed to be "I AM", the Jews picked up stones to kill him for blasphemy.

Here are other notable statements from A bible dictionary about Jesus:

Other passages, too, explicitly name Jesus as God. Romans 9:5 speaks of "Christ, who is God over all, forever praised!" Grammatical rules permit rending 2 Thessalonians 1:12 as " the grace of our God and Lord, Jesus Christ." The same holds true of Titus 2:13 ("our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ") and 2 Peter 1:1 ("our God and Savior Jesus Christ"). Hebrews 1:8 calls the Son God; 1 John 5:20 says of Jesus, "He is the true God and eternal life." Such texts confirm the impression given indirectly in other places that Jesus merits the name "God" by virtue of his mastery over wind and sea (Mark 4:41), personification of God's kingdom (Luke 11:20), ability to forgive sins (Mark 2:7), and intimacy with the invisible Father by which, enemies charged, he presumed to be "equal with God" (John 5:18). They could not accept that this was not effrontery but his due and possession (Php 2:6) from all eternity (John 17:24). It can be concluded that belief in Jesus' essential divinity (along with his obvious full humanity) extends to all levels of early Christian confession.

Any thoughts on this would help.