Posts by HB

30

Do the religious have higher morals than the non-religious?

by digderidoo in

jw
friends

ok, i was going to ask whether christians have higher morals, but i thought that other religions have the same kind of morals too.. when i look at those who sincerely follow their religion, i think that they do have a higher morality than those who do not follow some sort of scriptural guidelines.. this is not to say that the religious have a monopoly on morality, or to say that some religious people are not hypocritical in doing what they say, rather than what they do.

but as a whole it seems to me that someone with a religious upbringing has higher standards than someone without.. now some would say that higher standards or lower standards are defined by society, so therefore by whose definition do they have higher morals.

this would be a fair assumption.

HB

I visited the USSR in 1973 when not only was it a secular state, but all religions were heavily suppressed. 'Morality' was taught to children by parents and schools and was based on innate human instincts and traditions passed down over generations rather than on written laws or religious teachings. I found the standard of morality there to be no different than in countries where religion is integrated into the fabric of society. Russia was supposed to be classless but of course it was not, and I did find that, as in the UK and I guess elsewhere, the working classes were in many ways more moral then the upper classes.

I met lots of lovely people (I was studying the Russain language) and in Odessa I was invited to attend a meeting of an underground Christian 'church' that met secretly in someone's house. It was a group of about 20 mainly young students who were studying English. It was quite amazing as they did not even have a Bible, just a few type-written sheets of information and Bible texts sent to them from the West. The main reason they invited me was because they were desperate for more information about Christianity and they begged me to send them a Bible and any other literature I could when I got home. They based their whole attitude to morality on the text "Love thy neighbour as thyself" which I felt was a great way to live and they were very sincere about putting it into practice. Although I did eventually send out some Bibles (disguised as classic novels), I was rather diffident about it as I think they had probably already found an ideal basis for simple and pure morality without reading too much further and spoiling it with layers of dogma!

38

Any actually embarrased to admit they were Witnesses?

by Robert7 in

jw
friends

when i was active, i was always (usually) proud to talk about being a jw, our faith, reasons for our stupid beliefs on birthdays, x-mas, etc.

now with everything i'm going through, given how much of an impact this is to my life, i want to talk to others about it, like coworkers, and other friends.

but thinking about how i would explain how it's a mind-controlling cult, i feel stupid for falling for it.

HB

Speaking as someone who has never been a JW and knew almost nothing about the religion before March this year, (ie a worldly person), I am looking at this topic from a different perspective than most of you.

Far from judging you as idiots or freaks for previously being taken in by this religion, I have the greatest respect for you. The crucial element as others have said, is that little word "EX" in front of the words "Jehovah's Witness". That word 'ex' should be worn metaphorocally on your forehead as a badge of intelligence and pride.

For those who were born in or joined as children, you had no choice about what happened to you, but you deserve huge admiration for having the brains, courage and determination to get out, or to currently be in the process of doing so. Many of you have faced enormous challenges and overcome seemingly impossible obstacles to achieve your freedom. That deserves respect.

For those who were converted as adults, you need to remember that you are not the only ones in the world that made a mistake, EVERYONE makes errors of judgement........... a bad career choice, an unwise financial investment, an unsuitable spouse, bad choice of friends etc. You just happened to choose the wrong religion, (I'm not saying there's a right religion, but hopefully you know what I mean!) I would guess that in almost all cases, you chose to join the JWs at a time when either you had not yet found your true identity and purpose in life and were searching for something, or at a time when your emotions were in control rather than your head. And now you have also seen the light and proved your intelligence, courage and determination. So please try not to feel ashamed or guilty - it's completely unnecessary!

I suggest you could look on your JW years as if you have been on an gruelling journey to the Arctic where you developed snow-blindness and frost bite, became hopelessly lost for a time wandering on the ice in ever-decreasing circles, were cut off from the world, fell down deep crevasses, fought off agressive polar bears and almost starved, but in spite of all this you survived and reached civilisation and warmth again. You should be as proud to tell your JW story as an Arctic explorer would be to tell of his/her adventures. You have triumphed against all the odds and lived to tell the tale, and have a lot more to be proud of as a consequence than others who never had such difficult challenges in their lives.

To those of you who are afraid to tell people about your past because you think no one who has not been a JW member will understand, just check that you are not holding on to vestiges of the WTS teaching that all worldly people are selfish and uncaring. From what I have seen, JWs are very judgemental and intolerant so if you are newly out of the religion, you may think that everyone else in the world is like that and will continue to treat you in the same way. Of course some worldy people are just as bad or worse than bigoted JWs but don't tar everyone with the same brush; in my experience most worldly people are very understanding and symathetic. Just don't dump everything about your past on them in one go and expect them to understand immediately. Some will be compassionate, some will be indifferent, but few if any will think you are stupid. If they don't show interest or empathise, it's their loss and you don't need to be ashamed.

If you tell someone that you used to be a JW and there is an awkward silence or they change the subject, don't automatically assume they are judging you negatively, it's more likely that THEY are the one feeling inadequate and embarrassed as they don't know what to say. Some people are not comfortable discussing topics which are outside their own experience.

Also they may be assuming that you are a "religious" person and therefore have very high moral standards and they are inwardly panicking that you are judging their less than perfect morals. A Methodist Minister I knew a few years ago told me that he was used to people asking him at social occasions what he did for a living and when he told them, it immediately killed the conversation. But he realised that often the silence was because they were suddenly conscious that a few moments before, they had sworn or told a dirty joke or something! He was good at quickly putting people at ease as he was not judgemental and could tell a few dirty jokes himself, but it's worth remembering this when you mention your past JW status.

If you would feel confident enough in a relationship or social situation to tell someone what politcal party you would vote for then you should be ok telling them about your past religious membership.

There will be many outsiders who are eager to know what your JW life was all about and have countless questions as I do. Sweet Pea was right when she wrote that many non JWs would be wide eyed and interested to hear about your experiences. I certainly am, it is fascinating although at times heart-breaking. She is also right that it is like learning about a secret society, a world that the rest us knows nothing about.

A couple of months ago, the subject of cults came up (as it was in the news) at a dinner party I was at. It was an interesting discussion and in the course of it, I told the others what I had learned at that time about the JW religion. They were all fascinated and since then, as I have been learning more, five of the twelve who were at the dinner party have been asking me to pass on to them what I learn, as like me they are intrigued by what motivates people to believe such strange things. I found out that all of these 5 people have discussed the topic with other people at their work etc.

One of the most common reasons for curiosity I have found is that a lot of people want to know one or two arguements they can use on the door-step if JWs call. They don't have time to spend time trawling the internet or want to research deeply but just want a couple of facts that are easy to remember so that rather than just saying 'no thanks' and closing the front door they can say something relevant. They are not on a crusade but the existence of cults offends many, (not sure if this applies more in the UK than the USA?) and they like to occasionally do their bit to counter irrationality. The grapevine works quickly, so JWs in service in this area had better watch out!

So I would say to those of you dedicated to trying to bringing down the WTS or to helping as many JWs to see the light as you can, don't always avoid telling outsiders about the cult; in some cases we have access to tell the truth to JWs we know that you as apostates would not have. The JW that I am trying to help still talks to me although her study conductor has told her I am an "agent of Satan". But if I was an apostate, I am sure she would not be talking to me. I know my friend is embarrassed to tell people she is a JW to the extent that she is quite happy to lie about why she can't go to a birthday drink at the pub, so that gives me hope!

In summary well done to those of you who are comfortable with your past and to those who are not YET, I hope one day soon you too will realise there is no need to be ashamed and I hope will find peace as you concentrate on having a great life in the present and the future.

Love Heather

34

How much does gas cost where you live?

by reneeisorym in

jw
friends

i was depressed yesterday because i put in the first $40.00 tank of gas.

(i drive a toyota matrix -- i'm sure most people should think i should shut up now ...) .

i was hoping you guys could make me feel grateful for only having to pay $40.

HB

alt

50

Struggling with the concept of a "God"

by littleblueuk in

this topic, i'm sure, has been discussed many times, but today i am really contemplating the concept of god.. i remember vividly the old testament; the israelites slaughtering everyone in their path, men, women and children at god's direction at jericho, leaving no one alive.

i remember thinking then as a child how cruel that was.

there are many other examples.. then reading the news today i read a section in the world news about india.

HB

Awakened07,

Thank you for explaining clearly a concept which has been half formed in my head for a while but which I have not been able to put into words.

What made me ponder was when I found out, in the process of researching my family tree, how many people we are each directly descend from. We have 8 Gt Grandparents and the number doubles each generation you go back, so we all descend from 4,194,304 twentieth Gt Granparents and so on.

Back in the middle ages, i f just one of your 4 million+ direct bloodline ancestors as a child (or at least before they conceived the baby that became one of your 19th Gt Grandparents), had happened to step in front of an ox cart or whatever, and had been killed, you would not exist.

The probability of any of us as individuals existing in our present form is incredibly small, but nevertheless, we are here.

I do not personally believe there was an intelligent Being directing events and purposely bringing couples together from the beginning of time just to lead to my birth, or that this Being engineered my meeting my husband so that an as yet unknown individual will exist in another 20 generations. I feel that I am here by chance not Providence. (Do any Christians feel differently and feel you were destined to be born ever since time began?)

That thought led me to consider that the reason all the other amazing things in the universe exist which at first seem to be too complex or well-designed to be a product of chance, could indeed be just that, chance.

17

UK / USA opinion poll

by HB in

not sure - uk25% usa 11%.

yes it is a sin - uk 5% usa 33%.

yes it is a sin - uk 13% usa 40% .

HB

A new opinion poll from YouGov has compared the US and Great Britain on a number of issues. It covers politics, social issues, troops in Iraq and Afganistan, free trade, globalisation, religion, immigration, the economy, etc etc.

Interestingly, the most marked difference between the two nations is in relation to belief in God.

I have copied a few excerpts here, but the full survey can be read at

http://www.yougov.com/uk/archives/pdf/UK%20US%20topline%20comparison.pdf

Do you believe there is a God?

Yes I do - UK 39% USA 80%

No I Don't - UK 36% USA 9%

Not sure - UK25% USA 11%

Do you believe that there is a Hell where sinners who do not repent their sins go when they die?

Yes I do - UK 16% USA 54%

No I don’t - UK 57% USA 27%

Not sure - UK

27% USA 19%

How would you feel if the Prime Minister / President were an atheist?

I would be delighted - UK

11% USA 6%

I wouldn’t mind - UK

63% USA 28%

I would be sorry - UK

14% USA 31%

I would be angry - UK

2% USA 21%

Don’t know - UK

10% USA 14%

Which do you think is more likely to be the correct explanation for the origin of life on earth?

The theory of evolution - UK

63% USA 30%

The account of creation as told in the Bible - UK

10% USA 40%

“Intelligent design” – evolution has happened but by intelligent design - UK

13% USA 19%

Not sure - UK 15% USA 11%

Do you regard sex between unmarried people as a sin or not?

Yes it is a sin - UK

5% USA 33%

No it is not a sin but it is not generally desirable - UK

22% USA 29%

No it is perfectly acceptable behaviour - UK

71% USA 34%

Don’t know - UK

2% USA 4%

Do you regard homosexuality as a sin or not?

Yes it is a sin - UK

13% USA 40%

No it is not a sin but it is not generally desirable - UK

37% USA 27%

No it is perfectly acceptable behaviour - UK 46% USA 26%

Don’t know - UK

4% USA 7%

(I have added this one as I just read a thread on this topic.)
On the subject of climate change do you think…

The world is becoming warmer as a result of human activity - UK

55% USA 49%

The world is becoming warmer but NOT because of human activity - UK 25% USA 19%

The world is NOT becoming warmer - UK

7% USA 18%

Not sure - UK

13% USA 14%

Although UK and USA contributors to JWD are probably not a completely representative sample of their respective nations, I have noticed some definite trends on this board showing opinions drawn along national lines . Makes for more interesting discussions!

On a tangent, and national trends aside, the fact that ex JWs have such a wide range of opinions as seen on JWD proves that the Governing Body does not succeed in permanently re-wiring brains and creating all members into drones (or are they trying to create members in their Own image?). Once out of the cult, the previously supressed opinions of ex members are as diverse as the rest of society. A fact to celebrate!

43

2012: The Year The Internet Ends

by What-A-Coincidence in

jw
friends

http://ipower.ning.com/netneutrality.

06/01/2008 - every significant internet provider around the globe is currently in talks with access and content providers to transform the internet into a television-like medium: no more freedom, you pay for a small commercial package of sites you can visit and you'll have to pay for seperate subscriptions for every site that's not in the package.

what can we do?internet providers have realized that the only way to not lose massive amounts of customers over this is to make sure there are no alternatives, that's why all major internet providers are currently making agreements and planning to switch simultaneously somewhere in the year 2012. this is currently all going on under very strict nda's (non-disclosure agreements) because the last thing they want is the masses speaking out against it.

HB

I sent a link to this article to my son who works in the internet business and this was his reply: The article is vastly exaggerated and has facts wrong. At one point some of the big American ISPs were talking about trying to charge websites every time one of their users visited it (so that bit is the other way around). However the websites just threatened to block those users if they tried to put this into place (i.e. the intention being to make the users angry at their ISPs), so that idea was dropped. The other way around would never work as there'd always be one ISP which would stay out of the 'package' and thus attract everyone to join it. (Long live market forces!) Another less dramatic idea now exists - where big companies would pay ISPs to have a faster connection (e.g. Amazon's website would load quicker than a local website) however last thing I heard, a couple of the ISPs weren't going in on the idea either (in the hope they'd get extra customers by pointing out their average speeds are better) so I think that idea has started to collapse too. Plus, there are laws to contend with. This is what our government said: " The conclusion was that Net Neutrality laws in the UK would be "extreme... unattractive and impractical" and that it was "an answer to problems we don't have, using a philosophy we don't share" So don't panic.

20

the day after armageddon

by Crumpet in

jw
friends

(this is creepy, funny and shocking so i thought i would share - sorry if its ever been posted before.

) parts 2-5 will follow!

the diary of an .

HB

There was an interesting programme on UK TV last night (Channel 4) entitled "Life After People". It discussed a hypothetical time-line of what would happen to the world if for some reason humans were completely wiped out. If I was a JW, the programme would worry me.

Although theoretically speaking, immediately after a JW Armageddon, there would perhaps initially be a few million people left on earth, based on the ideas in this programme, this would not be enough to prevent the forces of nature taking control of most of the planet in a short space of time. I suppose JWs believe that Jehovah will take care of all problems, but in order to do so, He would have to change practically every known law of the universe including all weather systems.

An example of the problems that would face survivors is that within two weeks of not being maintained, city subways and underground networks would start filling with ground-water. Currently, in New York City, 700 pumps shift 49,000 cubic metres of water out of the tunnels everyday; in London, 30,000 cubic metres are pumped out. If no one was around to operate the London flood barriers, it wouldn't be long before the whole city was under water. So the top brass JWs can forget their ideas of moving into Buckingham Palace.

Everywhere there would be a population explosion of mice and rats eating all the rotting food in the houses and shops, and feral cats would be in their element. Forest fires would be left to burn out of control, and in the longer term, bridges, roads and all infrastructure would crumble if not maintained.

It's a strange thought that someone who lived in the 1st century and was resurrected might have to learn to do some very 21st century tasks!

The programme showed what has happened to a once beautiful town near Chernobyl that was evacuated only 20 years ago to illustrate how quickly buildings and civilisation disappears if not maintained.

See http://www.channel4.com/science/microsites/L/life_after_people/timeline/timeline.html

83

What really is a Soul Mate? --- Is it possible Yes or No?

by Hope4Others in

jw
friends

soul mate.

n. one of two persons compatible with each other in disposition, point of view, or sensitivity.

there seems to be a variety of defintions on the net so what does "soul mate" mean?.

HB

I really believe in the possibility of soul-mates both platonically and romantically.

My sister Christine is 50 and her partner Stuart is 30 and people constantly assume he must be her toy-boy, but those that know them understand that this is not the case and they are true soul-mates. They are like a mirror image of each other and they instinctively know what the other one is thinking and feeling and they are incomplete apart. They are both quite unconventional and both feel there is no-one else in the world with whom they could feel such a close bond and deep respect.

They had been good friends for many years but got together 6 years ago after my sister's previous relationship broke up. The general public could not understand a normal healthy 24 year old man wanting to be with a 44 year old woman and they had to battle against prejudice but in some ways this made them stronger.

After being blissfully happy together for a year, Chris agonised and soul-searched and in spite of Stuart's pleadings and protests, she broke away and went abroad to give him the opportunity to meet someone younger. She did it out of love for him, not because she didn't want to be with him, but later admitted that pressure from disapproving society had also played a part.

But Stuart was not interested in anyone else and spent the next three months begging her to return. Both of them were totally miserable apart and eventually, to the relief of all of us that are close to them, Chris realised that she should not be wasting time and fighting the inevitable and should accept this wonderful happiness and enjoy it. I don't believe in "fate" but am tempted to say they were destined to be together. They are closer than ever now.

Chris is still concerned that when she is 70, Stuart will only be 50, but he constantly assures her that he will always love her no matter what and she has accepted that now. Stuart points out that if he was in an accident and paralysed from the neck down or any other similar scenario, he knows that Chris would look after him, so she should accept his love and believe he will still love her when she is old. He tells her he loves her age lines and wrinkles as without them, she wouldn't be herself. I tell her she should not walk away from bliss because of an unknown future.

It is great being around them, their happiness, closeness and shared love seems to cast a light around them that reflects onto others and makes everyone else feel happy too. Sorry if it sounds like a sloppy romantic novel, but it's true and I think it helps to hear positive stories sometimes as there is so much sadness in the world.

Here is a picture of them taken in 2003 (sorry don't have a more up to date one).

alt

Just to finish, I am also happily married, (30 years this September - going to Paris to celebrate!) but my husband and I are not true soul-mates. We love and respect each other deeply but many of our interests are different and there are things about me he will never understand and vice versa. (I don't understand how he loves football, all the matches seem the same to me, and he can't understand why I am interested in philosophy and sociology, as he is perfectly happy without knowing about them!). But we do share a similar outlook on life and trust each other completely.

The nearest thing I have to a soul-mate is my sister, but I have to share her with Stuart!

11

JWs at the door

by HB in

yesterday, my 23 year old son mark was the only one in our house and was just drying off after a shower when the front doorbell rang.

he was expecting a friend to arrive, so he pulled on a pair of underpants and went to open the door and let his friend in, only to find two sweet-looking, demurely dressed middle aged jw ladies on the doorstep holding magazines.

mark was not particularly embarrassed, but the ladies were visibly taken aback by his appearance and were speechless for a couple of seconds.

HB

Thank you for your replies, very useful.

Bring the Light,

I didn't realise the door to door work was so organised, I thought they just drove around and decided on a whim where they felt like going that day! There's so much to learn.

Unfortunately I am sure the local JWs would not accept me for a study.

The reason I came to this site in the first place was that a 20 year old friend is currently studying with the Witnesses and I have been learning about the cult in order to try to show her the other side of the coin. Her bible study conductor has told her that I am an agent of Satan trying to tempt her away from the truth. Fortunately at present, my friend is ignoring this as she has known me for many years.

We live in a village in a relatively rural area and there is only one Kingdom Hall in the vicinity, so I am sure word would soon get around as to who I was if I rang and asked someone to call. My friend's study conductor does not know where I live at present, but she does know my name.

Pity as otherwise I would love the idea of being a secret agent!!

Bigmouth,

Thanks for the info, very useful. I used to work in a court office and was trained to keep calm and be polite to people whatever the circumstances, and my nature is placid, so I would discuss ideas with JWs in an even tone and be respectful and 'nice', Thanks for your advice though, interesting to see things from another perspective.

Black sheep,

Fantastic idea, yes I will use that if I get the chance to talk to them.

White Dove.

Yes sadist not masochist, it would be fun for me but not for the JWs I hope!

Heather

11

JWs at the door

by HB in

yesterday, my 23 year old son mark was the only one in our house and was just drying off after a shower when the front doorbell rang.

he was expecting a friend to arrive, so he pulled on a pair of underpants and went to open the door and let his friend in, only to find two sweet-looking, demurely dressed middle aged jw ladies on the doorstep holding magazines.

mark was not particularly embarrassed, but the ladies were visibly taken aback by his appearance and were speechless for a couple of seconds.

HB

Yesterday, my 23 year old son Mark was the only one in our house and was just drying off after a shower when the front doorbell rang. He was expecting a friend to arrive, so he pulled on a pair of underpants and went to open the door and let his friend in, only to find two sweet-looking, demurely dressed middle aged JW ladies on the doorstep holding magazines.

Mark was not particularly embarrassed, but the ladies were visibly taken aback by his appearance and were speechless for a couple of seconds. Mark assumed they were shocked by his wet, wild looking hair and 2 day's worth of stubble (he was just about to shave) but I wonder if they were just guiltily enjoying the sight of a good-looking fit young man wearing nothing but a pair of boxer shorts!

I was sorry I missed the ladies, as I have always enjoyed talking with JWs at the door but in the past, I have simply based my arguements on philosophical issues as I did not know anything about the WTS. However now I have learnt a few things from this site, I feel I could have a much more interesting discussion, and I would relish it.

I know that trying to get brainwashed people to understand reality is like eating custard with a fork, but unlike many of you here, I have no painful memories of being in the cult and have no distressing family pressures that hold me back from speaking, so why not, I have nothing to lose but time.

One occasion years ago I answered the door to JWs with my newborn 5 day old daughter in my arms, and after cooing over the baby for a few minutes and enquiring about my other two small children who were peering inquisitively at the callers, the couple asked if I was worried about bringing up children to be righteous in a sinful world. I looked at my beautiful innocent daughter and asked them if they believed babies were born sinful and they had to gulp before admitting in a mumble that they did. I just told them politely there was no point in us continuing this discussion and they hurriedly left.

Returning to Thursday, Mark knows a little about JWs as I have told him some of what I have been learning from this forum, but although like me, he enjoys a good debate, he didn't feel he was appropriately dressed to engage in a discussion at that moment, and anyway his friend was about to arrive, so he just said he was too busy and maybe another time.

I have never been a JW and would be grateful for advice on the following points:

1. Is it likely that the JW ladies would take Mark's off the cuff statement of "maybe another time" as literal and actually come back in the near future, or would they take it as a polite brush off? (Many English are often too polite; we use euphemisms instead of saying what we mean, so I thought these ladies might regularly be used to hearing "another time" at lots of doors and not take it literally).

2. If they do take it literally, would it be likely to be the same two ladies who come back, or do they give the addresses of potentially interested householders to their team leader who then decides who will do a return visit?

3. If there is to be a return visit, is it likely to be the same day of the week as the first visit (Thursday in this case)?

4. Do they have a set amount of time that they spend at each house or will they continue talking for as long as I seem 'interested'?

5. If I ask a question they cannot answer, would that probably make them leave?

6. Is it better to invite them in or keep them on the doorstep?

I realise if it's the same two ladies they might well be disappointed to have me to talk to and not my son (!), but although Mark probably will be in, (he is very busy running his own web-design business from home), he said if they return, he would probably leave it to me to talk but would listen in from another room.

The ladies left Mark with the March 08 Awake and the 1 April 08 Watchtower mags, which he threw straight in the recycling bin after they left, but I have pulled them out to read. Most of it made me squirm and clench my toes in revulsion, but in a couple of place I just laughed at the sheer comic ridiculousness of the statements.

I have dutifully used a highlighter on each page of the magazines (I have heard from all of you here that that's what JWs do before meetings), but I have highlighted things I think are wrong or don't make sense.

The first article in the Awake magazine is entitled "Is there one true religion?" It states that if you follow the moral laws of the bible, good consequences will be realised and if you don't, bad ones will happen. It claims this proves "the bible's moral laws hold true for all mankind". The next bit is the statement that really gets me: they say " IT LOGICALLY FOLLOWS" that as the bible's moral laws are true, it must therefore mean that the bible's teachings on worship, what happens when we die and hope for an everlasting future "are also truths".

My understanding of the meaning of logic is obviously very different to theirs.

It also makes me laugh how they bossily say: "So think: ....." before a statement, conditioning the reader to feel that if they don't agree, they simply haven't thought hard enough about the subject.

I guess you are all very familiar with the Watchtower and Awake writing style and the unbelievable content that has no relevance to most people's lives, but it's all new and morbidly fascinating to me.

If you have any further advice on how to talk effectively to JWs at the door-step, I would be grateful to hear it.

Heather