Posts by reniaa

332

The Son in two persons

by Deputy Dog in

the wt and jws around the world have made the evil "trinity" their reason for existence.

when in fact they have quite a mystery of their own.

one son in two separate an distinct persons with two separate an distinct natures archangel michael/human jesus.. on another thread spike tassel tried to explain this by saying: .

reniaa

hi nark

we use perdicted equations to do calculations from and if the equation we use is correct we can apply it to various situations and get the predicted outcome.

If we predict that Jesus is a hypostatic union because we think it can only be that way, we should be able to see this when we apply it to the bible it shouldn't create contradictions that we have to ignore or rewrite in our minds.

When the bible says God sent the son of God to be a sacrificed that is an observable contradiction to a hypostatic Jesus. Because it's saying it is the son of God from heaven who was sent that died.

Reniaa

332

The Son in two persons

by Deputy Dog in

the wt and jws around the world have made the evil "trinity" their reason for existence.

when in fact they have quite a mystery of their own.

one son in two separate an distinct persons with two separate an distinct natures archangel michael/human jesus.. on another thread spike tassel tried to explain this by saying: .

reniaa

hi nark

were is your proof that then when you look at a patch of red the starting place was a red bus with 4 wheels and not a patch of red?

why if someone who has amnesia and recovers regaining his memory and clearly doesn't have two consciousnesses would we think this was anyway different for Jesus ?

We are looking at Jesus rethinking from fantasy saying this is possible because it is Jesus, we are making them a special case with no biblical back up or human back up?

We are actually using the fact that he isn't human as a reason to support our fantasies.

Fact! a human cannot have two wills, conscousnesses, parts that can separate.

it is an eroneous equation to say

Jesus is not human therefore he does have two parts thats a fallacy jesus being human or not has no bearing on it

what you call "thinking" is what I call going into philosophical fantasy with no biblical back up.

Reniaa

332

The Son in two persons

by Deputy Dog in

the wt and jws around the world have made the evil "trinity" their reason for existence.

when in fact they have quite a mystery of their own.

one son in two separate an distinct persons with two separate an distinct natures archangel michael/human jesus.. on another thread spike tassel tried to explain this by saying: .

reniaa

hi quietly leaving

Absolutely not! becasue he's putting words in witness mouths which is really what Nark is doing as well be saying we believe Jesus is in anyway hypostatic.

witness believe michael is just an extra name thats all! the biblical principle on him having a few names is there, If Jesus had an extra personality for every name he has we are talking about 10 new Jesus's here.

We've always believed Jesus was an Angel/messenger Powerful spirit creature. more importantly the bible absolutely gives no scriptural proof of any dual or triune consciousness in one body or being it just isn't there!

Saying we believe anything other than what say is just putting your own frames of references on our beliefs.

Reniaa

332

The Son in two persons

by Deputy Dog in

the wt and jws around the world have made the evil "trinity" their reason for existence.

when in fact they have quite a mystery of their own.

one son in two separate an distinct persons with two separate an distinct natures archangel michael/human jesus.. on another thread spike tassel tried to explain this by saying: .

reniaa

hi designs

I don't think they are that bad they have the truth of the bible to hand but they need to throw off 1700 years of a faulty theological veil which might be impossible for them.

Reniaa

332

The Son in two persons

by Deputy Dog in

the wt and jws around the world have made the evil "trinity" their reason for existence.

when in fact they have quite a mystery of their own.

one son in two separate an distinct persons with two separate an distinct natures archangel michael/human jesus.. on another thread spike tassel tried to explain this by saying: .

reniaa

hi quietly leaving

The appeal of the witnesses to me is that their doctrinal points are purely bible driven! God is one YHWH, deut 6:4, soul dies, ec 9:5, annointed bride class -bible again, armageddon- bible again, earth promise - isaiah and jesus "meek inherit earth". Jesus is God's actual firstborn of creation son - extremely biblical. YHWH is the father - isaiah, Father is the one true God - Jesus own words at John 17:3. these aren't just references to these things taken out of context read into them, they are specifically saying it.

Deut 6:4 is extremely clear "YHWH is one YHWH"

JW's don't go off into reams of theological or philosophical speculations then repaint them on the bible, basically "a spade is a spade" with them.

the best trinitarians have for 3 in 1 is the baptism scripture in mathew which is about baptism and not God at all. Unlike deut which is on topic. Or they use John 1:1 which does mention God but says Jesus is WITH God which gramatically in itself shows he cannot be God but also has been shown to be innacurate in translation.

Have you heard of the sahidic coptic? it's a 3rd century copy written before trinity got accepted as doctrine and more importantly not written in greek so it's grammer was clearer, and it clearly renders John 1:1c as divine/a god/god-like basically qualative completely! absolutely no identity as "The God " at all.

Reniaa

332

The Son in two persons

by Deputy Dog in

the wt and jws around the world have made the evil "trinity" their reason for existence.

when in fact they have quite a mystery of their own.

one son in two separate an distinct persons with two separate an distinct natures archangel michael/human jesus.. on another thread spike tassel tried to explain this by saying: .

reniaa

hi quietly leaving

If you applied all that to trinitarians that I would agree with you, the point isn't whether trinitarians or Jws for that matter believe in hypostatic union but whether it is actually a doctrine tought by the bible, and it simply isn't!

The bible is clear Jesus is always shown to have one will and conscousness there are not little sign posts saying "now I am talking as Jesus creature" and "now I am talking as god the son".

When Jesus dies there is absolutely no biblical evidence that Jesus got split in two and that any part of him remained alive, I already showed a scripture that clearly says it is God the son that is the sacrifice. Did you notice Jon dough had to literally read that as "Jesus the creature" basically rewritting it in his own head to deal with it?

The worst fault of trinitarian theologians is they have drawn certain erroneous conclusion but then apply them backwards to the whole, ignoring scriptures that deny their conclusion and reading it into any scripture they can even if it has nothing to do with the conclusion.and then even worse they can read a scripture saying the absolute opposite to their theology and pretend it doesn't, cognitive dissonace :s

I admit witnesses can fall into this trap, anyone can but as a rule of thumb the more extra biblical rhetoric you need to explain your doctrine the less biblical it is.

Reniaa

332

The Son in two persons

by Deputy Dog in

the wt and jws around the world have made the evil "trinity" their reason for existence.

when in fact they have quite a mystery of their own.

one son in two separate an distinct persons with two separate an distinct natures archangel michael/human jesus.. on another thread spike tassel tried to explain this by saying: .

reniaa

hi Nark

I don't agree extra knowledge given or memories equate to an extra separate consciousness, Remember trinitarians openly admit to a hypostatic union so they do have it as openly part of their beliefs you cannot take what they believe and paste it on to witnesses.

Hypostatic involves more points than just extra memory/knowledge.

Hypostatic union It involves saying Jesus had two consciousies and two wills, two separate parts that can act without each other (one die and one not die going upto heaven).

(Incidently i'm still wondering about the whole resurrection of the creature flesh jesus and was it joined to the other son the God Jesus straight away or after it was ascended to heaven according to trinitarian rhetoric?)

It's like your saying

look theres a RED bus it's big, red, and has 4 wheels but look theres a red postbox it's red so it must be a bus! even though it shares/agrees nothing else in common with the bus but it's colour.

Allowing for extra memory/knowledge does not allow for a whole new will and separateness of conscousness

If a person has amnesia does he become two persons? of course not when his memory returns they just get added to his current awareness and he absolutely remains the same person, the same will, the same consciousness.

The bible makes it clear that people under the influence of holy spirit only had a greater access to God's power and certainly not of any pre-human existence but then none of them had a prehuman existence like Jesus had. in fact he is unique among men in this which is clearly stated by the bible.

Yes Jws are similar to trinitarians because we both use the bible and draw our theologies from it. So the RED part of it is we both accept the biblical words that Jesus had a prehuman existence and is God's son and we both have ways to explain it.

Were we differ is what we do beyond the bible!

How much we add too what the bible says.

Your trying to make a case for Jw hypostatic union simply from Jws allowing Jesus could become aware of his prehuman existence but that is not all that is involved when you say Jesus had two wills, parts or consciousnesses. Your making the point of agreement hypostatic union when in fact it is Jesus's prehuman existence and knowledge of it.

Your taking the big red bus and working backwards (ack somthing theologians do a lot) when you should be working forwards from the red colour/bible.

Reniaa

332

The Son in two persons

by Deputy Dog in

the wt and jws around the world have made the evil "trinity" their reason for existence.

when in fact they have quite a mystery of their own.

one son in two separate an distinct persons with two separate an distinct natures archangel michael/human jesus.. on another thread spike tassel tried to explain this by saying: .

reniaa

Hi deputy dog and narkissos by extention

because he was saying JWs have a sort of hypostatic Jesus.

We accept Jesus has many names and titles, he is called "the word" 'immanuel' 'Jesus' 'christ' 'king' 'Priest' 'lamb' all we are doing is adding archangel michael to the list.

And yes I fully appreciate michael is a logical construct like trinity. It wouldn't massively effect my Jw beliefs if michael turned out to be other than Jesus.

I think trinitarians would have happily adopted michael but it would mean accepting Jesus is an angel/messenger because the bible doesn't call jesus an angel or does it?

Malachi 3:1 (New International Version)

1 "See, I will send my messenger, who will prepare the way before me. Then suddenly the Lord you are seeking will come to his temple; the messenger of the covenant, whom you desire, will come," says the LORD Almighty.

The word for messenger here is the word for angel and could be translated angel but it is clearly refering to Jesus, so here we have the bible calling Jesus Angel/messenger of the covenant

Jesus was baptised he got holy spirit, up until that point while he had grown in knowledge and goodstanding it is clear he did nothing extraodinary such as miracles etc. When Jesus visits his hometown they are unable to accept a Jesus that is the messiah or could do miracles from what they already knew of him as the carpenters son.

but having access to holy spirit and doing miracles etc is not manifesting a hypostatic union since many people other than Jesus could use holy spirit.

Reiniaa

332

The Son in two persons

by Deputy Dog in

the wt and jws around the world have made the evil "trinity" their reason for existence.

when in fact they have quite a mystery of their own.

one son in two separate an distinct persons with two separate an distinct natures archangel michael/human jesus.. on another thread spike tassel tried to explain this by saying: .

reniaa

hi isaac

good scripture but Jesus himself explains it

John 5:26
For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.

jesus was given this authority as well as judging by his father.

Reniaa

332

The Son in two persons

by Deputy Dog in

the wt and jws around the world have made the evil "trinity" their reason for existence.

when in fact they have quite a mystery of their own.

one son in two separate an distinct persons with two separate an distinct natures archangel michael/human jesus.. on another thread spike tassel tried to explain this by saying: .

reniaa

hi leolaia

Good evening and thank you for your response

fair enough I won't say it is like modalism but...like I said to jon, so your saying we can't use humanity as comparative because they are not spirit, but on what bases do we say that spirit itself can be 3 in 1?

It's like your saying humans can't be 2 in 1 because they are human but God can be 3 in 1 because he is not human. thats just not logical.

For us to accept that God can be three in one there has to be a precedent for it in the scripture.

In fact the scripture does use humanity as comparative.

John 17:11 (New International Version)

11 I will remain in the world no longer, but they are still in the world, and I am coming to you. Holy Father, protect them by the power of your name—the name you gave me—so that they may be one as we are one.

So by this scripture we as humans can be one like God and Jesus are one. so which is it?

Reniaa