Hi mrsjones
lol i can't give the credit to JW's they find me and my thought processes equally baffling, so i'm afraid my idiocy is all my own lol.
Posts by reniaa
-
78Why do we get stumbled out of JW's because of imperfect people?
by reniaa ini see this a lot on this forum, loads of people saying they left jw's because of "hypocritical ....... ( put elder, pioneer, couple, sister, brother, governing body) here.. but?.
why would you expect any man-run organisation if you believe the bible, to have to be perfect and not be full of imperfect people that will come across as hypocritical?.
the bible examples from israelites onwards name anyone :- moses, king david, pharasees, paul the one thing the bible doesn't do is white-wash them it shows that however much we follow the laws we are always fighting our own imperfection usually failing every time and needing to be corrected sometimes punished (moses had to give-up chance of seeing the foretold land), so why do we hold this against jw's as a reasons not to be a jw's anymore?.
-
-
-
78
Why do we get stumbled out of JW's because of imperfect people?
by reniaa ini see this a lot on this forum, loads of people saying they left jw's because of "hypocritical ....... ( put elder, pioneer, couple, sister, brother, governing body) here.. but?.
why would you expect any man-run organisation if you believe the bible, to have to be perfect and not be full of imperfect people that will come across as hypocritical?.
the bible examples from israelites onwards name anyone :- moses, king david, pharasees, paul the one thing the bible doesn't do is white-wash them it shows that however much we follow the laws we are always fighting our own imperfection usually failing every time and needing to be corrected sometimes punished (moses had to give-up chance of seeing the foretold land), so why do we hold this against jw's as a reasons not to be a jw's anymore?.
-
-
reniaa
hi again JD after reading my own reply to your post I now ask myself another difficult question from my conclusions which no one has thought to point out and that is...
If all christian religions are equally imperfect but by being Christian they are saved then technically all you have to be is a Christian to be saved and it doesn't matter which one, as God will understand?
So i could pick an easy one that only asks that i say sorry every now and then when I do wrong and I can take pleasure in enjoying life knowing loving God is enough hmmm i'll have to think on that.
-
78
Why do we get stumbled out of JW's because of imperfect people?
by reniaa ini see this a lot on this forum, loads of people saying they left jw's because of "hypocritical ....... ( put elder, pioneer, couple, sister, brother, governing body) here.. but?.
why would you expect any man-run organisation if you believe the bible, to have to be perfect and not be full of imperfect people that will come across as hypocritical?.
the bible examples from israelites onwards name anyone :- moses, king david, pharasees, paul the one thing the bible doesn't do is white-wash them it shows that however much we follow the laws we are always fighting our own imperfection usually failing every time and needing to be corrected sometimes punished (moses had to give-up chance of seeing the foretold land), so why do we hold this against jw's as a reasons not to be a jw's anymore?.
-
-
reniaa
The responsibilities of the individual JW in relationnship to the JW leadership in light of its (obvious) imperfections is the issue at hand. posted by TD
Hi TD
i'm sorry your right i completely missed the point of your post, kids were tugging at me at the time, I post this topic without realising i asked more than originally intended..
Your right these examples I used were all punished by God for their imperfections so i'm begging the question shouldn't the JW's also be punished because they have also gone astray hmmm.
Here's the problem for me by what measure can we measure? literatually jesus is the only perfect line we can judge by and it's true if I look at any organisation religious, governmental, even job places I will find things faulty and imperfect, if we then focus in on just the Christian religions you get even more complex as none of them hold up much against jesus's teaching of love and peace. And so they by what you correctly point out deserve to be judged as harshly as jews, israelites etc
At this point I am left asking myself the question...Am I left choosing the best of a bad bunch? because they are all imperfect?
Someone said I think on another thread that being a witness spoils you for any other religions and they are right because there's no imperfection you accuse JW's on this whole forum, I cannot see in equal measure in any other organisation or even lack of because you still then falling back on your own personal judgement of morality which can mean anything.
lol does any of this make sense?
-
78
Why do we get stumbled out of JW's because of imperfect people?
by reniaa ini see this a lot on this forum, loads of people saying they left jw's because of "hypocritical ....... ( put elder, pioneer, couple, sister, brother, governing body) here.. but?.
why would you expect any man-run organisation if you believe the bible, to have to be perfect and not be full of imperfect people that will come across as hypocritical?.
the bible examples from israelites onwards name anyone :- moses, king david, pharasees, paul the one thing the bible doesn't do is white-wash them it shows that however much we follow the laws we are always fighting our own imperfection usually failing every time and needing to be corrected sometimes punished (moses had to give-up chance of seeing the foretold land), so why do we hold this against jw's as a reasons not to be a jw's anymore?.
-
-
reniaa
Hi TD
Why wouldn't i want to be compared with jews israelites etc? What makes me superior to them, they are offspring of adam so am I, if we are so much better now the world wouldn't have issues still? Some of those I admire most biblical King David etc had massive failings nothing i see nowadays makes me think humanity wise we have progressed that much for example iraq and other wars.
-
78
Why do we get stumbled out of JW's because of imperfect people?
by reniaa ini see this a lot on this forum, loads of people saying they left jw's because of "hypocritical ....... ( put elder, pioneer, couple, sister, brother, governing body) here.. but?.
why would you expect any man-run organisation if you believe the bible, to have to be perfect and not be full of imperfect people that will come across as hypocritical?.
the bible examples from israelites onwards name anyone :- moses, king david, pharasees, paul the one thing the bible doesn't do is white-wash them it shows that however much we follow the laws we are always fighting our own imperfection usually failing every time and needing to be corrected sometimes punished (moses had to give-up chance of seeing the foretold land), so why do we hold this against jw's as a reasons not to be a jw's anymore?.
-
-
reniaa
hi wtwizard I understand your point and it's a valid one as someone said earlier by there fruit you will know them and I guess I will be asking the question has Jw's heavily overburdened it's people more than any other Christian faith. Enforced celebacy is harsh as a JW from birth I understand to a certain degree though probs not as fully as i gopt married at 19 but being stuck in an unhappy childless marriage for 8 years was one reason I left Jw's, I wanted a new partner and kids and knew i would never have a reason to divorce him while I stayed in the faith, there was other issues but basically in the last 10 years I enjoyed having my cake and eating it if you look at my first topic i posted on here it describes some of it. But and this is only me personally speaking now... I have suffered from having my cake and eating it, and am currently a single mum with 3 kids and have recently wondered the wisdom allowing myself to jump fence and taste the grass on the other side. Still from some on here I know they have had opposite experience and have had positive experiences finding new partners and a fulfilling life, lol I have to ask myself would i even be thinking of going back if I'd have been happy since leaving?
Still I still question if the types of things you question in Jw's wouldn't also be found in any intense fundamental religion, I have found this in the workplace certainly were the boss is infallible and your sacked without reference if found wanting.
-
78
Why do we get stumbled out of JW's because of imperfect people?
by reniaa ini see this a lot on this forum, loads of people saying they left jw's because of "hypocritical ....... ( put elder, pioneer, couple, sister, brother, governing body) here.. but?.
why would you expect any man-run organisation if you believe the bible, to have to be perfect and not be full of imperfect people that will come across as hypocritical?.
the bible examples from israelites onwards name anyone :- moses, king david, pharasees, paul the one thing the bible doesn't do is white-wash them it shows that however much we follow the laws we are always fighting our own imperfection usually failing every time and needing to be corrected sometimes punished (moses had to give-up chance of seeing the foretold land), so why do we hold this against jw's as a reasons not to be a jw's anymore?.
-
-
reniaa
hi Open mind got my kids home so only had chance to do a quick read on it, :S which probably was a mistake, listening to someone bring up loads of organisations/families from the bible as he calls them and then tells me they weren't organisations even though they have leaders that make decisions for the people strong biblical structural direction and they are encouraged to group together for protection and council their own members judicially as well as defeat and come up against those not part of the organisation basically if felt like someone telling me it looks like cheese, tastes like cheese and would fool a mouse yet it isn't cheese :S
Firstly he mentions pre-flood stuff which I felt was a bit naughty of him since biblical info on this was very sparce and we know they according to bible lived pro-longed lives and so Adam would have been around to teach them about jehovah as well as all speaking the same language, we do know from after the flood before babel that the people were inclined to congregate together anyway.
He misses out an important part of OT for me which was when moses father-in-law came to him seeing that moses took a lot on himself judging the people and he suggested putting older men over each tribe to rule them and judge them can't think of the scripture atm.
That the jews were a highly organised group is true upto modern times and he skips over this neatly by refering to jews as tribal groups only.
He then talks of paul making congregation in different town which felt like he was blowing his own arguement out of the water because on one side he was saying paul had a direct line to God and then paul is making congregations if we didn't need them why would paul bother?
His strongest arguement is saying Godly insight is given to the individual not to any organisation but I think he might be splitting hairs here because it's clear individuals functioning as part of the organisation usually as leader/prophet/overseer/elder role in many cases are given insight aka moses, Samuel, Daniel, hezekiah, John, Paul etc.
Like i said i only speed read it so if i'm wrong in my conclusions feel free to correct me?
-
78
Why do we get stumbled out of JW's because of imperfect people?
by reniaa ini see this a lot on this forum, loads of people saying they left jw's because of "hypocritical ....... ( put elder, pioneer, couple, sister, brother, governing body) here.. but?.
why would you expect any man-run organisation if you believe the bible, to have to be perfect and not be full of imperfect people that will come across as hypocritical?.
the bible examples from israelites onwards name anyone :- moses, king david, pharasees, paul the one thing the bible doesn't do is white-wash them it shows that however much we follow the laws we are always fighting our own imperfection usually failing every time and needing to be corrected sometimes punished (moses had to give-up chance of seeing the foretold land), so why do we hold this against jw's as a reasons not to be a jw's anymore?.
-
-
reniaa
Imperfection is no excuse once you've claimed a special position with God
I can't agree with this as if this was the case why did the jews need jesus to come and sort them out? and re-teach them?
there is no organisation that God used in the bible that didn't suffer from the imperfection of it's leaders because they were men, there was no point to jesus coming if organisations couldn't be currupted by the teachings of men?
Some on here then say they follow jesus, not an organisation! but then if that is all we need to have why do we have Acts, Romans onwards and all the teachings of paul on being followers in an organisation following jesus if we alone could follow him without need of this?
100% failure rate hmmm as the only real thing they predict is the coming of armegeddon and stuff related to that so if they get it right or wrong the whole world would eventually know.
The way I see it all Christian faiths have to be lumped together inc JW's any that say they are following the bible and have to be judge as a group as all have had access to jesus's teachings and have to be responsible for how they translate those teachings, age of organisation or length of time with the organisation is irrelevant as they all use the same source and therefore can be judge from that and also all have imperfect leaders translating that source so for me the question is currently which Christian faith is closest to what jesus's teaches? or alternatively should i set up my own lol
-
78
Why do we get stumbled out of JW's because of imperfect people?
by reniaa ini see this a lot on this forum, loads of people saying they left jw's because of "hypocritical ....... ( put elder, pioneer, couple, sister, brother, governing body) here.. but?.
why would you expect any man-run organisation if you believe the bible, to have to be perfect and not be full of imperfect people that will come across as hypocritical?.
the bible examples from israelites onwards name anyone :- moses, king david, pharasees, paul the one thing the bible doesn't do is white-wash them it shows that however much we follow the laws we are always fighting our own imperfection usually failing every time and needing to be corrected sometimes punished (moses had to give-up chance of seeing the foretold land), so why do we hold this against jw's as a reasons not to be a jw's anymore?.
-
-
reniaa
I don't want to bring the paedophile thing into this debate to deeply basically because it's to close to home for me as someone who knows personally that it exists just as terribly outside of the Jw's and personally I feel society and mankind as a whole should be held responsible for the vulnerability of our children in this respect! I won't even bother trying to defend JW's in this, like any other organisation ie , church, children home, School, care home, hospital, they have let their people down by not protecting them enough from this danger, but one thing i won't do is pretend this is just a JW issue when it clearly is a World-wide one. thats all i'll say on this subject.
I see from some arguements that you think the people as Jw's are more imperfect because of the organisation? would this be a correct observation?
-
78
Why do we get stumbled out of JW's because of imperfect people?
by reniaa ini see this a lot on this forum, loads of people saying they left jw's because of "hypocritical ....... ( put elder, pioneer, couple, sister, brother, governing body) here.. but?.
why would you expect any man-run organisation if you believe the bible, to have to be perfect and not be full of imperfect people that will come across as hypocritical?.
the bible examples from israelites onwards name anyone :- moses, king david, pharasees, paul the one thing the bible doesn't do is white-wash them it shows that however much we follow the laws we are always fighting our own imperfection usually failing every time and needing to be corrected sometimes punished (moses had to give-up chance of seeing the foretold land), so why do we hold this against jw's as a reasons not to be a jw's anymore?.
-
-
reniaa
hi eyes open :s if i start doubting the bible's teaching I wouldn't be a Christian at all, I remember taking part of a massive debate on an Atheist forum on the destruction of tyre prophecies being a failed one but in the end i think the pro-prophecy group put the better arguement.
I think i have to accept as a starting line that what the bible teaches is correct inc all the end of time prophecies.
Lol i didn't want this debate to goto an imperfect teaching one which has it own set of flaws which throw me, ones that would have me not being religious at all never mind christian basically the harsh measure you apply to Jw teaching being imperfect if pointed at any other faith would find equal flaws and in many cases more so.... "trinity"/ modern faithhealing (tv evangelists) / aliens(scientology)/ gold tablets (mormons) cough ahem
When you then look at the JW's the biggest teaching fault that you have against them which is their intepretation of how the end of days as prophecied in the bible plays out, times dates etc, but if they have it wrong, who has it right?
Again back to imperfect people if someone is stumbled because a Jw couple get away with fornaicating before they are married isn't that just biblical, joseph himself had to accept a pregnant mary knowing the child wasn't his while they were betrothed so the bible shows erm anticipating vows is very human from time immemorial if the jewish faith had circumstances that allowed for it.
-
78
Why do we get stumbled out of JW's because of imperfect people?
by reniaa ini see this a lot on this forum, loads of people saying they left jw's because of "hypocritical ....... ( put elder, pioneer, couple, sister, brother, governing body) here.. but?.
why would you expect any man-run organisation if you believe the bible, to have to be perfect and not be full of imperfect people that will come across as hypocritical?.
the bible examples from israelites onwards name anyone :- moses, king david, pharasees, paul the one thing the bible doesn't do is white-wash them it shows that however much we follow the laws we are always fighting our own imperfection usually failing every time and needing to be corrected sometimes punished (moses had to give-up chance of seeing the foretold land), so why do we hold this against jw's as a reasons not to be a jw's anymore?.
-
-
reniaa
I'm talking about people on here who say they left because of imperfect hypocritical actions of others not the teachings which is a different issue, but on that there are biblical examples and real life ones too, because what are the appocrapha if not false teachings of others trying to add onto the bible? from both OT and NT you get appocrapha.
But in the bible itself though refered to the oral laws that the jewish people had adopted which where words of men over and above Gods laws lol can't remember the scripture.
then there's the kings that ruled the israelites that from references of high places having to be destroyed showing the ruling kings had started adding ways of the nations to the israelites inc human sacrifice.
I've read the bible in many different versions and one thing i find clear is it does predict the time of the end etc it does predict "signs" etc that will happen, on just this alone my search of christian religions that actually teach this gets very narrow most saying we goto heaven and thats it end of.
Back to the imperfection issue, I just don't see after reading all the bible examples in there with the exception of Jesus we should then expect any religion's people to be perfect and not be prone to all the uglier human failings?