Posts by reniaa

223

Diary of a thinking to return ex-Jw

by reniaa in

i thought long and hard about posting this but the mis-information on this site finally persuaded me, i already accept many may not accept what i say on face value and get their appologist pens ready for making sure no pro-witness propaganda slips through the net on this site but here goes....... i've been on this forum for a few months my first post was about how i was thinking of returning to jw's and at my sisters recommendation to look at this site for both sides of the story before taking that step.. i faded from jw's 10/11 years ago now i left my hubby at the time divorced him to going on to have more relationships and kids, i was definately given the impression after asking on this site and with what i read that if i tried to return i might face df or at least a jc but definately a couple of elders questioning me over what i've been upto these last few years - none of these have happened.

i talked with an old jw friend (yes i do have then and she never shunned me quite happily accepted an offer of coffee from me and my asking for a chat) i told her i was interested in going back and was very frank about what i done in the last 10 years but not sure how returning was done now, she quite happily said she go ask for me to find out.. result!

she came back this week and said "all i had to do was goto meetings again" and an offer of a study was there for me if i wanted it to explore the open doubts that i had expressed i now had.. not quite the fire and brimstone welcome this site led me to believe would happen.. i will keep you posted with further updates if i feel the need to put them in future.. .

reniaa

hi wifekeepmeinit, in many ways i agree with you, I am interested in Jw because of the bible not the wts which is like you say just a tool,

I don't mean to stir people, I've only had chance to do about 4/5 replies on this topic because of my busy life but I seem to have that effect, it isn't deliberate i'm sorry if my honest opinion on CofC upset people I would just prefer a more modern read of an EX-GB experiences in current times.

I am not avoiding deeper issues just I haven't even started my refresher study yet so relying on 10 year old memories and whatever I can quickly research on the internet and my own personal reflections on the issues at hand.

I don't mind anyone disagreeing with me in fact I expected it, I only took issue with those calling me a current Jw and accusing me of lying which I think anyone would say something about, I've laid myself open to critisism by mentioning i'm pro-witness atm so am proud of how honest i've been, it would have been easier to be just a lurker and say nothing.

I will address the hebrew 1:8 scripture, is it saying Jesus is God? well after researching it on internet last night the jury seems to be out, it's quoting from an OT psalm scripture which is saying a human king is God which is using the God term to denote how people view the king not saying he is actually Almighty God, and from a number of sources all say same thing that both ways of translating it are correct both the NWT and KJ lol confusing, So i wouldn't say this is a defining scripture that can be used either way.

To be honest my non-believe in trinity is more because of jesus's own personal words he always kept himself separate to God and would not of approved of us putting him in Gods place and I think I can safely say you will find no scripture were jesus is saying otherwise.

Also a personal thought and this is completely personal is..... how can Jesus sacrifice for us mean anything if he was actually God, the point was he was a separate individual that made the sacrifice out of love for us and his father, even if you argue he was separate on earth if he just tempory seperate it still lessens the sacrifice but if he's always been separate and made the decision conscously both before and after that for me makes his sacrifice for mankind unique and far more powerful and loving beyond anything, lol not sure if I made any sense there, it's hard to put it into words.

223

Diary of a thinking to return ex-Jw

by reniaa in

i thought long and hard about posting this but the mis-information on this site finally persuaded me, i already accept many may not accept what i say on face value and get their appologist pens ready for making sure no pro-witness propaganda slips through the net on this site but here goes....... i've been on this forum for a few months my first post was about how i was thinking of returning to jw's and at my sisters recommendation to look at this site for both sides of the story before taking that step.. i faded from jw's 10/11 years ago now i left my hubby at the time divorced him to going on to have more relationships and kids, i was definately given the impression after asking on this site and with what i read that if i tried to return i might face df or at least a jc but definately a couple of elders questioning me over what i've been upto these last few years - none of these have happened.

i talked with an old jw friend (yes i do have then and she never shunned me quite happily accepted an offer of coffee from me and my asking for a chat) i told her i was interested in going back and was very frank about what i done in the last 10 years but not sure how returning was done now, she quite happily said she go ask for me to find out.. result!

she came back this week and said "all i had to do was goto meetings again" and an offer of a study was there for me if i wanted it to explore the open doubts that i had expressed i now had.. not quite the fire and brimstone welcome this site led me to believe would happen.. i will keep you posted with further updates if i feel the need to put them in future.. .

reniaa

I will state once more for the record I have been completely honest about who I am and what stage I am at but does it even matter?

If you guys think a Jw actually coming on JWD discussion board is someone to avoid then there is more wrong with you than there is with me.

Lol part of me wishes I could say I was a JW just to see what you would do? (but I don't lie) maybe horsewhip me off this forum? one supposedly for Jw's but I get roundly harassed if i state for the record i'm simpathetic and will be speaking from that viewpoint.

To be honest I would think any intelligent person could see i'm exactly what I say I am, having been away from Jw's to long to do more than discuss the big doctrine issues that I just about remember and faulter on the lesser ones. Maybe i should see it as a compliment to my debating skills that even as a new mum who has very little time to come on this site and reply, that you would think I come across as a fully fledged JW, maybe one day I will be, who knows? but i have my own personal ways to go.

I have looked at links but not replyed on them yet, lol haven't really had chance to read any books suggested yet it's early days, but to be honest with the "crisis of conscience" franz book I flicked through an online version of it and wasn't tempted, it sounds woefully out of date (it was written 30 years ago?) and very much looking at the imperfectionss of men running an organisation.

223

Diary of a thinking to return ex-Jw

by reniaa in

i thought long and hard about posting this but the mis-information on this site finally persuaded me, i already accept many may not accept what i say on face value and get their appologist pens ready for making sure no pro-witness propaganda slips through the net on this site but here goes....... i've been on this forum for a few months my first post was about how i was thinking of returning to jw's and at my sisters recommendation to look at this site for both sides of the story before taking that step.. i faded from jw's 10/11 years ago now i left my hubby at the time divorced him to going on to have more relationships and kids, i was definately given the impression after asking on this site and with what i read that if i tried to return i might face df or at least a jc but definately a couple of elders questioning me over what i've been upto these last few years - none of these have happened.

i talked with an old jw friend (yes i do have then and she never shunned me quite happily accepted an offer of coffee from me and my asking for a chat) i told her i was interested in going back and was very frank about what i done in the last 10 years but not sure how returning was done now, she quite happily said she go ask for me to find out.. result!

she came back this week and said "all i had to do was goto meetings again" and an offer of a study was there for me if i wanted it to explore the open doubts that i had expressed i now had.. not quite the fire and brimstone welcome this site led me to believe would happen.. i will keep you posted with further updates if i feel the need to put them in future.. .

reniaa

lol sirona I guess I must be less believable because i'm crap at spelling ^^

Come on sirona how many times have people said "my terrible ex who was a JW did such and such to me" on this site and you've all simpathised saying its the WTs fault that the person was so horrible?

And now you say I have to accept blame personally for being treated badly by men on the outside? you and blues would make a great abuse councilors (NOT), would you ask a victim what they did to provoke it?

I put blame firmly were i see it which it the current morale trends which encourage lack of commitment. and i quote secular sources to back me up.

Is Britain in moral decline?
1670 published comments with 54 censored.
Britain is in moral decline say 83% of people polled for the new BBC One religious and ethical programme "The Big Questions". Do you agree?

http://www.newssniffer.co.uk/bbc/threads/show/7218

I have made bad choices and others are luckier in their partners, but however many of the boxes are ticked or even how good a relationship is in the early years, things can change and I think its narrow to just say someone picked wrong and need to sort themselves out.

223

Diary of a thinking to return ex-Jw

by reniaa in

i thought long and hard about posting this but the mis-information on this site finally persuaded me, i already accept many may not accept what i say on face value and get their appologist pens ready for making sure no pro-witness propaganda slips through the net on this site but here goes....... i've been on this forum for a few months my first post was about how i was thinking of returning to jw's and at my sisters recommendation to look at this site for both sides of the story before taking that step.. i faded from jw's 10/11 years ago now i left my hubby at the time divorced him to going on to have more relationships and kids, i was definately given the impression after asking on this site and with what i read that if i tried to return i might face df or at least a jc but definately a couple of elders questioning me over what i've been upto these last few years - none of these have happened.

i talked with an old jw friend (yes i do have then and she never shunned me quite happily accepted an offer of coffee from me and my asking for a chat) i told her i was interested in going back and was very frank about what i done in the last 10 years but not sure how returning was done now, she quite happily said she go ask for me to find out.. result!

she came back this week and said "all i had to do was goto meetings again" and an offer of a study was there for me if i wanted it to explore the open doubts that i had expressed i now had.. not quite the fire and brimstone welcome this site led me to believe would happen.. i will keep you posted with further updates if i feel the need to put them in future.. .

reniaa

Hey jgnat as usual you read me better than most seeing I like exploring the debates :) Although I would question your use of the word "weak" and replace it with "easy targets" in arguements about other religions of were their logic is flawed.

Looking at the tough arguement of 'taking the emblems' hmmm....well theres no getting away from it being a logical construct of JW's, that they've deduced it as a result of certain scriptures applying it specifically to 144,000 being only allowed to take the emblems and not too the "Great crowd", are they right? did jesus mean everyone or just the 144,000 thats a difficult one, certainly the scriptures they used do exist but would a uninterested observer come to same conclusion? This is hard for me because of not being a JW for so long i'm rusty on it, its one thing I am going to study to explore the reasoning and conclusions. certainly I can see why someone already used to partaking would class it as odd to say the least. Also its not just an issue of JW'S other christian faiths apply it differently to each other especially in how they observe it, If you look at the passover account which jesus is replacing, a yearly event it's obvious this was to be yearly too, not many christian faiths apply it yearly only, Also jesus did it informally between his appostles in direct contrast to how catholics apply it certainly you don't see the appostles kneeling before jesus waiting for bread to be put in their mouths by him ewww, this is a complex issue that needs further examination as a whole.

Thankyou Jgnat and certain others for not taking the easy option of just saying i'm brain-washed or deluded or justs nuts lol and answering my points fairly :)

223

Diary of a thinking to return ex-Jw

by reniaa in

i thought long and hard about posting this but the mis-information on this site finally persuaded me, i already accept many may not accept what i say on face value and get their appologist pens ready for making sure no pro-witness propaganda slips through the net on this site but here goes....... i've been on this forum for a few months my first post was about how i was thinking of returning to jw's and at my sisters recommendation to look at this site for both sides of the story before taking that step.. i faded from jw's 10/11 years ago now i left my hubby at the time divorced him to going on to have more relationships and kids, i was definately given the impression after asking on this site and with what i read that if i tried to return i might face df or at least a jc but definately a couple of elders questioning me over what i've been upto these last few years - none of these have happened.

i talked with an old jw friend (yes i do have then and she never shunned me quite happily accepted an offer of coffee from me and my asking for a chat) i told her i was interested in going back and was very frank about what i done in the last 10 years but not sure how returning was done now, she quite happily said she go ask for me to find out.. result!

she came back this week and said "all i had to do was goto meetings again" and an offer of a study was there for me if i wanted it to explore the open doubts that i had expressed i now had.. not quite the fire and brimstone welcome this site led me to believe would happen.. i will keep you posted with further updates if i feel the need to put them in future.. .

reniaa

I'm no going back to Jw's because they are like a comfortable pair of old shoes! but because...for me its about having a relationship with Jehovah as well as jesus, if another religion could offer me this then I would be tempted, certainly I have looked but they are all tied up with the 3-1 trinity.

There is also an element in "Prodical son" in how I feel, I have tried the grass on the other side and found it isn't greener in fact it's worse, I also felt a hole in my spiritiual life. Some on here have become atheists after leaving Jws finding like myself that you can't leave Jw's over teaching issues and join another church easily because they have similar teaching issues in different areas. Being an atheist is not an option for me because I do believe in God. If just believing in a nebulus God is enough then what is the point of the bible? this question is for those that say just believe in God and don't bother with an organisation.

The trinity is what we would call a logical construct but i find the logic behind it flawed, nowhere is trinity mentioned and nowhere is 3 -1 mentioned but for me the scriptures saying there is 'but one God' and 'jesus is God's son', and 'i am lower than the father' 'on his right hand' have stronger influence in persuading me Jehovah and Jesus are totally separate entities but there is a better thread on here exploring this issue...

http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/7/154783/1.ashx

Hi bluesbreaker

Is Christmas an old chestnut? Not for me because I personally find it an act of worship that is one of the few left that society does whether it is to jesus or a weird white- bearded, red-coated old man that supposedly gives children presents is debatable though. You may argue that it isn't an act of worship but I think personally actions speak louder than words and the rituals of christmas and people attitude towards it reek of worship even if they don't realise it. This is not a bad thing if you like Christmas etc but personally i find i would only do it if I had completely decided not to be a JW because it would be for me making a definite choice in faith away from JW's.

All faiths come with things you either accept or don't and how you describe Christmas is exactly what you condemn me doing with JW's! I know the generation thing is flawed but i accept it because i think the bulk of their doctrines is right more than the wrong stuff and with Christmas you basically say "it doesn't matter it's not jesus birthday and has pagan origins but we recognise jesus" etc you can't see the hypocracy in accepting in one what we don't accept in another? I could use other examples beside Christmas but it's a good one that all can be shown to understand how we can accept a lie by justifying it, that we can't just accuse one religion of lying without applying to others too.

I dislike your saying it's my fault that I have been treated badly by men in my life, this was not very nice of you and beneath you if you actually want a logical debate and as well as being a weak arguement, because it's like saying if I have bad experiences in JW's it's Jw's fault but if I have bad experiences outside of JW's its my fault, that arguement just doesn't make any sense.

Reniaa

223

Diary of a thinking to return ex-Jw

by reniaa in

i thought long and hard about posting this but the mis-information on this site finally persuaded me, i already accept many may not accept what i say on face value and get their appologist pens ready for making sure no pro-witness propaganda slips through the net on this site but here goes....... i've been on this forum for a few months my first post was about how i was thinking of returning to jw's and at my sisters recommendation to look at this site for both sides of the story before taking that step.. i faded from jw's 10/11 years ago now i left my hubby at the time divorced him to going on to have more relationships and kids, i was definately given the impression after asking on this site and with what i read that if i tried to return i might face df or at least a jc but definately a couple of elders questioning me over what i've been upto these last few years - none of these have happened.

i talked with an old jw friend (yes i do have then and she never shunned me quite happily accepted an offer of coffee from me and my asking for a chat) i told her i was interested in going back and was very frank about what i done in the last 10 years but not sure how returning was done now, she quite happily said she go ask for me to find out.. result!

she came back this week and said "all i had to do was goto meetings again" and an offer of a study was there for me if i wanted it to explore the open doubts that i had expressed i now had.. not quite the fire and brimstone welcome this site led me to believe would happen.. i will keep you posted with further updates if i feel the need to put them in future.. .

reniaa

Oh dear so many posts and not anough time with a new baby to reply to all....:s

Right let me address some things people think i am going back for and why i shouldn't...

Going back to be loved part of a family or a boyfriend -no, I am happy enough with the friendships I have so i will allow for new friendships but it isn't an issue for me as to why to go back. Also I don't want a new man in my life atm so going back to avoid a new relationship might be a better arguement, as I know men are men, and a single mum outside of JW's would make men see me as a easy lay not to commit too, but inside JW's men will be still be put off by my situation. (am i cynical about men? yes I am but thats all men in and out of JW's lol)

Going back because i'm scared of armegaddon or outside society - I would say i'm disillutioned with an outside society that that sexualises everything, making people think sexual intimacy is more important than emotional intimacy, The bible makes me think we are in "end of days" atm the scripture I can't get out of my head is "Lovers of pleasures rather than God", armegeddon itself doesn't scare me so much as I want a relationship with God that is correct.

Is jesus God? - What puts me off other Christian religions is the idea of the trinity basically making Jesus into God, I have studied the scriptures personally in the bible using, 3 different versions of bible and nothing I have read for me shows jesus is God, yes like the above posters shows no one can "know God but through Jesus" but that doesn't mean jesus and Jehovah are one being, in fact the way those scriptures keep defining Father and son as separate would for me uphold the JW view in this respect. Also these scriptures mean jesus opened the path for us to have a relationship with jehovah which maybe why we can use his name and know him. I was surprised how few are the religions in christianity are mono-theistic, this for me is the strongest arguement for JWs and always has been.

JW lies - there no getting around the fact that in predicting the "End of times" and swapping and changing with "generations" and 'new light' they have lost a lot of credibility, I always knew this would be an issue even as a young JW and probs why I have not as much issue with it as some, its one i struggled with even before the generation stuff, I can remember even thinking as a child they were getting into hot water, especially as none can know time and place and the best we can be is in expectation.

Well with the above the only way to address it is to find an alternative Christian religion that has it right! and that is what I did but find I have to address the faith teachings of other Christian faiths first, that they all have there own set of teachings that have to be looked at individually, and after looking I can't say they are any better especially with a view to teachings but i won't specify because my conclusions are from personal observation and thats all anyone can do.

(btw if you hold the lies JW's teach against them why is it so easy to accept the proven lies of Christmas etc? i wonder about this with people that throw the lies thing at me a lot? is a lie more acceptable because more people accept it?)

I am a real person! and my struggles are real but I am pro-witness atm so what I write will reflect this.

To be honest I can't see anyone being effected by my words on here, from what I read most people take the comfortable postion that i'm deluded, too brain-washed etc I would argue against both because conclusions i've come to is from researching the bible again. I will say Jgnat maybe right in that I have looked for reasons to support my set postion already but if the arguements had been strong enough I could have been swayed.

I don't like that ultimately my position is Jw's are the best of a bad bunch and allow me to have a relationship with Jehovah as well as jesus which no other christian religions offer. Give me a better option and I'll look into it. but bear in mind you have to show me that another faith has it right doctrinely.

Making my own religion isn't an option mainly because i don't feel inspired to set up a new christian faith, but i do think the 'not forsaking the gathering together' important, isolation does breed problems.

70

How to make love & marriage work w/a JW

by StillinLove in

please dont comment saying to "run" or "get out while i can" thank you im not new to this, so i can handel it.

i have been with my boyfriend for 3 years, we started dating in high school and now i am going to college and he is working.

i am 20 and he is 21, i was raised catholic but my mom and i are too open minded for the church so we left.

reniaa

Make the bounderies clear! have a conversation about what goals you both want for the future together and if you had children.

Do not be afraid to address your worries and concern about the future with him, I would suggest this even if he wasn't a Jw because faith is only one part of a marriage and from my own experience when it was other things not faith at all that I should have spoke about before getting serious. I regretted not having the difficult conversations first.

I was too afraid I think to address my worries before the points of no return in case it ended our relationship, it was only later i realised in not having the conversation I made it them more difficult issues,

Talking and get that understanding between you first will really help in the future maybe even get it written down, so you can show him in the future if he does change but thats being ultra careful, Many multi-faith relations can work but both have to be respectful of the other as a person and parent. always remembering faith is a personal thing and can only changed if i person has the desire to change as well.

Also as a cautionary note this site will give you worse case scenarios and can be biased, so use a healthy amount of your own judgement,

223

Diary of a thinking to return ex-Jw

by reniaa in

i thought long and hard about posting this but the mis-information on this site finally persuaded me, i already accept many may not accept what i say on face value and get their appologist pens ready for making sure no pro-witness propaganda slips through the net on this site but here goes....... i've been on this forum for a few months my first post was about how i was thinking of returning to jw's and at my sisters recommendation to look at this site for both sides of the story before taking that step.. i faded from jw's 10/11 years ago now i left my hubby at the time divorced him to going on to have more relationships and kids, i was definately given the impression after asking on this site and with what i read that if i tried to return i might face df or at least a jc but definately a couple of elders questioning me over what i've been upto these last few years - none of these have happened.

i talked with an old jw friend (yes i do have then and she never shunned me quite happily accepted an offer of coffee from me and my asking for a chat) i told her i was interested in going back and was very frank about what i done in the last 10 years but not sure how returning was done now, she quite happily said she go ask for me to find out.. result!

she came back this week and said "all i had to do was goto meetings again" and an offer of a study was there for me if i wanted it to explore the open doubts that i had expressed i now had.. not quite the fire and brimstone welcome this site led me to believe would happen.. i will keep you posted with further updates if i feel the need to put them in future.. .

reniaa

Thankyou for your replies everyone, i've been busy over bank holiday weekend and so had little time to reply,

You've all made really good points I fully expect to answer a few questions from elders eventually, I have nothing to hide, I left JW's because i thought trying to find love outside of JW was the answer, I now find that outside comes with it's own set of problems, If i would call Jw's 'Strict' as word to describe them, I would call outside 'Selfish' on the whole, to describe what feel is the prevailing mood encouraged by TV and internet driven cultures.

"Do I think WTS have the 'Truth" hmmm difficult one! the sharp scalpal used on this forum to cut open teachings of Jw's has to be equally applied to other religions if we are to be fair, and unfortunaltly none suffer well from the pruning. Just because a change in a teaching is 1800 years old doesn't make it less a teaching of men, if it hasn't any real biblical roots like the 'trinity' and any Christian religion using it has to be answerable, just doing something because everyone else does it isn't a good enough excuse when we have the bible as a reference point. I currently think Jw's follow the bible better than most other Christian religions that aspire to follow the actual teachings (having had a taste of the consequences of fornication and adultery I can see in most cases the consequences outweighs the benefits especially if you look at prevailing morale trends). Christian religions that just follow jesus and don't look to closely to his words other than forgiveness don't appeal to me with their people-pleasing wishy-washiness.

You guys have shown me valid issues that can be taking against JW's and i have taken them on board, If i go back it will be with knowledge it is not as blindly as you seem to think it is.

All this been said it's early days for me and I will keep you all posted :) I don't expect it will be quick because of my personal circumstances but again Thankyou for all you imput and when i have more time i will try and answer some replies more personally.

Ironically it was people on this site that said "you sound like aJW you ought go back" that was one of the pushes for me lol

223

Diary of a thinking to return ex-Jw

by reniaa in

i thought long and hard about posting this but the mis-information on this site finally persuaded me, i already accept many may not accept what i say on face value and get their appologist pens ready for making sure no pro-witness propaganda slips through the net on this site but here goes....... i've been on this forum for a few months my first post was about how i was thinking of returning to jw's and at my sisters recommendation to look at this site for both sides of the story before taking that step.. i faded from jw's 10/11 years ago now i left my hubby at the time divorced him to going on to have more relationships and kids, i was definately given the impression after asking on this site and with what i read that if i tried to return i might face df or at least a jc but definately a couple of elders questioning me over what i've been upto these last few years - none of these have happened.

i talked with an old jw friend (yes i do have then and she never shunned me quite happily accepted an offer of coffee from me and my asking for a chat) i told her i was interested in going back and was very frank about what i done in the last 10 years but not sure how returning was done now, she quite happily said she go ask for me to find out.. result!

she came back this week and said "all i had to do was goto meetings again" and an offer of a study was there for me if i wanted it to explore the open doubts that i had expressed i now had.. not quite the fire and brimstone welcome this site led me to believe would happen.. i will keep you posted with further updates if i feel the need to put them in future.. .

reniaa

I thought long and hard about posting this but the mis-information on this site finally persuaded me, I already accept many may not accept what I say on face value and get their appologist pens ready for making sure no pro-witness propaganda slips through the net on this site but here goes......

I've been on this forum for a few months my first post was about how i was thinking of returning to Jw's and at my sisters recommendation to look at this site for both sides of the story before taking that step.

I faded from Jw's 10/11 years ago now I left my hubby at the time divorced him to going on to have more relationships and kids, I was definately given the impression after asking on this site and with what I read that if I tried to return I might face DF or at least a JC but definately a couple of elders questioning me over what i've been upto these last few years - None of these have happened

I talked with an old JW friend (yes i do have then and she never shunned me quite happily accepted an offer of coffee from me and my asking for a chat) I told her i was interested in going back and was very frank about what I done in the last 10 years but not sure how returning was done now, she quite happily said she go ask for me to find out.

Result! she came back this week and said "all I had to do was goto meetings again" and an offer of a study was there for me if i wanted it to explore the open doubts that I had expressed i now had.

not quite the fire and brimstone welcome this site led me to believe would happen.

I will keep you posted with further updates if I feel the need to put them in future.

28

Impalement or Crucifiction? Opinions please?

by Tired of the Hypocrisy in

as we all know, the jw religion teaches that christ was impaled on a torture stake rather than crucified on the cross.

i have my own views on this and have recently been approached by a friend who also has certain views on the murder of jesus.

from my own reading of history and some recent internet sources, the discription of what the bible says happened to christ bears little resemblance to what impalement on a torture stake actually was.

reniaa

I had this debate before,

After reviewing all the evidence you can't use any word describing what it looked like because we simply don't know!....opinion would have the likeliest contenders as the Tau (patibulum)which is a T shape or a simple stake as witnesses contend, from what I know of leolaia research Latin cross the one around most catholics neck the one people kiss etc is the least likely to have been used because it just wasn't a form of execution used at that time.

just for emphasis a Tau (patibulum) is not a cross it is a T shape!

and there is evidence against this mainly that a sign was put above his head which for me adds weight to the single stake arguement as well as the fact people are tied to or nailed to patibulum crossbeam before carrying it to their execution place, no mention is made of untying/unnailing jesus before giving it to the guy who carries it instead of jesus

Personally thats why i prefer the usage of stake word as apposed to cross because anyone saying the word 'cross' immediately pictures a latin cross and no other so it totally gives the wrong impression, also if the shape was so important it would have been specified, the importance was always that he died not the shape of his instrument of death as leolaia will tell you there wasn't even a word for it,

Leolaia and i disagree over which word to use but i'm a purest and say unless conclusive proof that a latin cross was used, we shouldn't use the word cross we should use the original word 'stake' it may also give a wrong impression but it at least has the authenticity of actually being the word used in the original texts.