Posts by reniaa

51

Why JWs should soft-pedal the "Divine Name"

by Open mind in

this is prompted by reniaa who claims that one of the things that jws have right is the name jehovah.. you know how if you're trying to convert someone to be a jw, you put your best foot forward and try to keep the controversial stuff that might "stumble" them on the back burner?

(like say, mother's day or when i was a kid, pinatas?

) well, that's how i categorize the whole topic of the divine name.

reniaa

hi open mind :)

I disagree on the soft pedal of the divine name, it's what makes the Jehovah's Witnesses unique and it's hard to soft pedal something that you have right on the table as soon as you reveal who you are.

heres the facts......on jehovah

The Hebrew tetragrammaton, YHWH, is the way the name of God appears in the Hebrew Bible. The Hebrew language is a consonantal language, possessing no vowels. Vowels were pronounced, but not written. They were transmitted orally from generation to generation. This may like a difficult system, and quite strange to us, but it is not that difficult. Just as you can decipher that THS S TH WY TH HBRW PPL WRT BCK THN, means "this is the way Hebrew people wrote back then," so could they easily pronounce words without vowels.
By about 200 B.C., after the time of the Exile, and due to superstition, Jews would no longer pronounce God’s name for fear that they would take it in vain by not saying it properly. Instead of pronouncing the tetragrammaton, they would say Adonai, which is the Hebrew word meaning Lord. Because of this superstition, no one today knows exactly how it was pronounced.

So here's the question because superstitious jews allowed the correct pronouciation of JHWH to laps should we follow suit and not use it? deciding like the jews did to use the word "Lord" that is a completely different word but it also has a different meaning in that it isn't a name but just an anominous title, is better than trying to pronounce God's name?

The one thing I noticed on this site is you all talk about lies and truth a lot and here we have an example of something deliberately obscured by men out of superstition, that then went on to be directly causal in more misconceptions having the two main characters in the bible both called Lord was bound to end in trouble.

the 1611 version of king james bible used jehovah 7 times

The KJV translators used the name "Jehovah" whenever the name Yahweh was found under one of the following three conditions:
1. When YHWH is used as God’s personal name.
Exodus 6:3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name JEHOVAH was I not known to them.
Ps 83:18 That men may know that thou, whose name alone is JEHOVAH, art the most high over all the earth.
2. When God’s name is repeated as "Jah Jehovah."
Isaiah 12:2 Behold, God is my salvation; I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.
Isaiah 26:4 Trust ye in the LORD for ever: for in the LORD JEHOVAH is everlasting strength:
3. When God’s personal name is part of a place name.
Jehovah-jireh
Genesis 22:14 And Abraham called the name of that place Jehovah-jireh: as it is said to this day, In the mount of the LORD it shall be seen.
Jehovah-nissi
Exodus 17:15 And Moses built an altar, and called the name of it Jehovah-nissi:
Jehovah-shalom
Judges 6:24 Then Gideon built an altar there unto the LORD, and called it Jehovah-shalom: unto this day it is yet in Ophrah of the Abi-ezrites.

modern versions of the bible even want to wipe these few exceptions for example :-

Isaiah 12:2 (New International Version)

2 Surely God is my salvation;
I will trust and not be afraid.
The LORD, the LORD, is my strength and my song;
he has become my salvation."

Do you think this scripture now makes better sense?

and isaiah 26 :4

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"Trust in the LORD forever, For in GOD the LORD, we have an everlasting Rock.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Trust the LORD always, because the LORD, the LORD alone, is an everlasting rock.

77

Taking apart the Memorial

by jgnat in

a new poster inspired me to take a look at the memorial talk and the way that the witnesses honor (dishonor) jesus' memory.

i had mentioned that the form is, from this christian's point of view, an abomination.

the participant is encouraged to look and not partake.

reniaa

but is he referring to the bread and wine or actually himself and his teachings? it's easy to eat a piece of bread and drink a little wine and say I follow jesus, it's much harder to walk the path he walked and follow his actual words?

Isn't the memorial just representative of a choice people make to follow jesus the same as baptism is a choice of entering Jw's, and both need to be followed by actions?

86

E-mail to JW Ex-Wife: What You Can Learn Researching the WTS in 3 Hours!

by Seeker4 in

i posted a thread earlier this week about a conversation i had with my jw ex-wife.

the next day i sent her this e-mail.

one should never be afraid of ideas.

reniaa

They use jehovah's name (brave considering they are fighting 1800 years of indoctriniation to try and pretend it doesn't exist )
What makes you think His name is Jehovah? It was first coined by a Catholic monk. The WTBS has even published the fact that Yahaweh or something else is probably closer to the original pronounciation. Placing vowels in any order could be correct. So the possibility exists that instead of calling Him by a very respectful title like God or Lord we could be bastardizing His name and calling Him something that He may not even like. And if He wanted His name pronounced, don't you think He would have made it a little easier to discover the correct vowels in the correct order? No, the WTBS uses "Jehovah" because it sets them apart...like all good cults they have to prove they are inspired of God. They fail miserably on the whole God's name thing.
-BONEZZ

You talk like the tetragramation is the only name written without vowels! News Flash every name in the old testament was written that way the only reason we are less knowledgeable on jehovah is the jewish superstition that stopped it being pronounced like other names but it certainly didn't stop it be used to start other names or words for example hallelujah means "praise to jehovah" a popular christian song.

So basically is jewish superstition that allowed a pronouciation to be lost to be ascribed to God even though we have the tetragramation put into OT 7000 times by God 's direction, all of which we have to ignore by your account and pretend other completely different words are better than the accurate one?

erm wouldn't it be simpler for God to have made sure the other words were used in the first place?

77

Taking apart the Memorial

by jgnat in

a new poster inspired me to take a look at the memorial talk and the way that the witnesses honor (dishonor) jesus' memory.

i had mentioned that the form is, from this christian's point of view, an abomination.

the participant is encouraged to look and not partake.

reniaa

I'll be honest I haven't been able to do a thourough reading of this thread because of lack of time but I do agree Jw's are stuck here by the conclusions they have drawn about annointed and other sheep from the bible.

The memorial draws a distinction line between those two classes, making us think one has heavenly hope and others have earthly hope.

I saw first-hand the reaction of someone who has regular communion when he went a Jw memorial were people don't partake, he was horrified and bent his head started praying to Jesus in the middle of the memorial.

You talk of communion but I did not feel the lack, it felt just as sacred and as just as much as we were honouring jesus but it's like we were humble and not worthy to partake, recognising we were destined to live on earth forever and not be kings and priests in heaven, it's very hard to explain.

It sounds like you feel we are condemning ourselves by not partaking?

54

Found this today - My Book of Bible Stories

by kurtbethel in

i was looking in a thrift store and found this gem from 1978. .

quick!

hide it from your children!.

reniaa

So something is good and ok if it is a work of fiction with death, dying and torture themes?

I have to say I don't think an age is specified so you use your own judgement when to let them read it, like a parent above my daughter who is 3 found it and was flicking through the pages, it was on a shelf in a jumble of books, I didn't rip it out of her hands in horror, I just let her flick through it and she found the rainbow in the noahs ark picture and thought it was pretty.

54

Finding Faith

by Ima Apostate in

how many of you ex-jw kids were able to believe in mainstream christianity after leaving the borg?

within the last year, i have opened up to getting to know god again.

what's funny is that when i prayed for truth and to know god, i knew and had a real feeling in my heart that i was getting closer to something real, but there was still a voice going, "hey, it's me jehovah, and you have rejected me!".

reniaa

I don't think i could turn to another faith besides Jw's my mind would just keep asking how many bible scriptures will I have to mentality blank out to become this religion. The trinity is too big a stumbling block, I'd have to go lalala and humm a little every time I see a scripture saying Jesus is God's son or pretend it actually says "manifestation of God on earth soon to be rejoined to him instead"

Better to become an atheist if I can't follow the bible but that thought is just too depressing a thought lol

86

E-mail to JW Ex-Wife: What You Can Learn Researching the WTS in 3 Hours!

by Seeker4 in

i posted a thread earlier this week about a conversation i had with my jw ex-wife.

the next day i sent her this e-mail.

one should never be afraid of ideas.

reniaa

In addition, it is an especially attractive Christian religion for minorities for it is a religion that is very comfortable with and prides itself on being a melting pot of all races. So what is anyone offering in the form of an ongoing religion that can replace the WTS? What organization out there has more truth and Bible understanding than the WTS? None.
This is a tangled web, and now I realize how fortunate I am to be free of it. The Bible is absolutely true. JWs are indeed the temple organization and the prophesied preachers of the "good news", but the Bible also identifies the GB as the eventual apostate "man of lawlessness" that exists in God's own house of anointed ones, who in the end becomes apostate and corrupt, requiring Christ to remove
JC

Yes but you are defeated by your own arguements Jcanon if there isn't an alternative to Jw's were can people turn too? to there own judgement which is flawed in the same way as the WT's is because they are human too and if they are not in some form of organisation they are isolated, could they even practise any religion in that case without it being heavily influenced by whatever environment they are in?

The principle is there in the israelites living among the egyptians for 500 years, they managed by being together as a group to keep their identity even with intermarriage but despite all that they still ended soaking up many of the egyptians practises and festivals, little idols they could pretend represented Jehovah rather than the egyptian God it was made for. they would have justify them much as we do christmas and suchlike now, If a group can get effected so how much more so can one person alone?

86

E-mail to JW Ex-Wife: What You Can Learn Researching the WTS in 3 Hours!

by Seeker4 in

i posted a thread earlier this week about a conversation i had with my jw ex-wife.

the next day i sent her this e-mail.

one should never be afraid of ideas.

reniaa

Hi Vinny, I will say I am very resistant to lots of out-of-date wts being quoted at me, When I said modern eyes you have to look back in context to the time something was written i'll use one of your quotes as an example,

1972 "While both homosexuality and bestiality are disgusting perversions, in the case of neither one is the marriage tie broken" {WT Nov 1 1972 32}

This was written in 1972 wt now you tell me what was public knowledge of these two practises at the time? and how were they viewed at the time? knowledge of both these practises was limited because in 1972 they were still condemned world-wide. Are you saying wts should have had special knowledge?

If christians following God are given special knowledge on subjects like medicine, etc how come they weren't using antibiotics 2000 years ago? I think I can safely say that God has let man be originator of his own progress both medically and scientifically, and the wts has to be a tool reflecting this change and so will get it wrong the same as anyone else at that time with it's current level of technology! below example you used was 1929 for goodness sake.

1929 "Thinking people would rather have smallpox than vaccination, because the latter sows the seed of syphilis, cancers, escema, erysipelas, scrofula, consumption, even leprosy and many other loathsome affections. Hence the practice of vaccination is a crime, an outrage and a delusion." {GA May 1 1929 502}

I live in England were in recent years one doctor manage with false research to make millions of parents stop their children having a triple vaccine with a scare of autism attached. Deseases thought wiped out by the vaccines got loose again and started killing children only now are we recovering.

Wts is a man-made christian organisation based on biblical teachings and sometimes falling into the trap of allowing thoughts of men to blur biblical teachings it has that completely in common with every single religion on this planet!

We only have the bible to draw knowledge from but it isn't a science journal and we have to apply it to situations that exist now but didn't exist 2000 years ago take smoking for example I think the we can safely use bible examples to prove it a wrong practise and Jw's banned it years ago but now it is currently one of our biggest killers world-wide. JW's have to be held accountable for the the blood issue and wrong teachings that have led to deaths but the bible blood scriptures are confusing at best, I personally wouldn't know how to apply them and most christian religion don't touch them like they also avoid the future prophecy part of the bible.

If Catholics had had their way the bible would still be in latin and definitely not for the weak average John Smith to read and get wrong ideas about.

Now are the Jw's the only ones who can save us? are they the symbolic "ark" in modern times as one of the wts you quoted points out hmmm, you actually point out something that was on my mind and why I came on this site in the first place.

2 things I mention in favour of the Jws in justification for being one of them.

They use jehovah's name (brave considering they are fighting 1800 years of indoctriniation to try and pretend it doesn't exist)

No trinity - trinity is a misconception that may never have come about if jehovah's name hadn't been removed, whether it's jehovah or jahweh both are preferable to changing the word completely.

Can we be in a wrong organisation and still be saved? well I think all are wrong to some degree inc Wts but is there a good reason to stick to an organisation that follows the bible teachings as closely as they can inc the morality?

Are we the 10 slaves looking after things while the landowner is away and each one has to be accountable for how far removed from the bible they allow themselves to get?

I struggle with these questions not 'why such and such elders son got away with having premarital sex' etc

hmmm how many people as witnesses gave up smoking and were saved from lung cancer because of it? we will never know that fact!

86

E-mail to JW Ex-Wife: What You Can Learn Researching the WTS in 3 Hours!

by Seeker4 in

i posted a thread earlier this week about a conversation i had with my jw ex-wife.

the next day i sent her this e-mail.

one should never be afraid of ideas.

reniaa

hi seeker thankyou for your words in reply :) you saw the point i was making on how they do teach you to read :)

I do agree a little with manny trillo above though, you wife might think you've done the research for her and not be happy about that it may make her a little resistant to the points.

Vinny you always have kind words for me and I do appreciate your points I can answer you in a nutshell by carrying on your example, if Jws are used car salesmen then the world is full of them and not just the religious organisations. You say they have the worsed history of any christian organisation in the last 100 years but if you say it is because of change then WHY is that a bad thing when you have on one side churches that have been teaching the same wrong rhetoric for hundreds of years without change?

One thing that gets me is why do people look back at history with modern eyes on this site? they never put something in context of the time period it is in, Religions are very much effected by the current prevailing trends of thought for example :- I was still at school when caning and beating children was stopped in them and that wasn't so long ago 1987 can you believe it? children were still being beaten in schools only 20 years ago, of course now its the opposite and teachers are terrified of the children and sophisticated security systems need to be in place with metal detectors and school shootings are a big problem, I personally believe a religion needs to change to keep up with changing society but keep integrity with bible teachings,

Atm pentacostals and wiccan churches are the biggest growing religions why? because they offer a softer easier religion that give you spirituality without accountability and certainly not much bible knowledge.

The blood issue is a big one and not just black and white or i wuldn't have had a non-witness nurse say to me once she would never have a blood transfusion if she could help it obviously blood is safer now and very little resemblance only 10 years ago when people could get hiv from blood, If i was the org now i would say current change in how blood is processed for transfusions and broken down in conponents makes it more a personal choice decision.

And lol I do know my thoughts would make me not exactly Good Jw material but jehovah may help me on that :)

50

CHRISTMAS: December 25th DOES have a Biblical foundation! CHECK IT OUT!

by Lady Liberty in

my mother and i were talking about christmas being in december, and how the christians felt it was truely a victory to have christ jesus birth still celebrated, unlike the pagan sun god that was celebrated by the pagans at the same time.

we got to talking and realized that if you count backwards from when scholars really feel jesus was most likely really born (in september), and count back 280 days of pregnancy, it would actually be late december!!!

could it be that the birthday was from the date of conception, not delivery???

reniaa

Would Jesus approve of the way we celebrate christmas if it is to be something we do in his name?
That question could be asked about any number of things, could it not ? For instance, Would Jesus approve of those who expel others from the congregation for reporting a pedophile in their midst ? Or for taking blood ? Or for questioning issues regarding doctrine such as a socalled "Governing Body" arbitrarily making life and death decisions for millions of others ? Or policing the bedroom ? Discouraging education ? Pronouncing end of the world dates in his father's name ? Forming a union with the Wild Beast ? Forbidding beards which he himself wore ? Discourage charity ? Remove a man for low "field service" hours ? Mark as "worldly" and unchristian a woman who wears a nice pantsuit instead of a dress ? Shun those who celebrate the birth of their child ? Etc...

So your answer is to make a strawman arguement of my question?

its a simple question with a simple answer, The rights and wrongs of witness practice is not on the table here just Christmas and my question is still unanswered.