Posts by reniaa

33

Watchtower deception regarding the TRINITY

by jwfacts in

i have finally finished an article outlining the deceptive way in which the watchtower presents its anti-trinitarian information.

any constructive criticism such as regarding errors that may have crept in is welcome.

since i cannot embed a page i hope entering the html code works, otherwise it can be read at http://jwfacts.com/index_files/trinity.htm.

reniaa

you talk of modalist but their belief on God, son and holy ghost just doesn't make sense as it says that none of them exists at the same time, so jesus is just miming to himself in conversation to God.

It looks more they have generalised to much but since catholism form of trinitarian teaching is still the major form belief it's understandable.

you talk to any average person on the street and ask what trinity or god is and they will just say 3 in 1, not many people go into the depths of belief and all its variables as us, for a basic reader of everage understanding it puts a very simple statement of trinity.

55

Cross is a pagan symbol, watchtower is a pagan symbol too

by Noelle in

jw
friends

you all jehovah witnesses that said jesus didn't die on a cross but on a stake your wrong because the romans were pagans and what better way to crucify someone than on a pagan symbol.

i have a fact that you need to listen to as well, the watchtower which you symbolize is a pagan symbol as well.

oh no how can that be you ask, well let me tell you.. in ceremonial magic and some traditions of wicca and neopaganism, the four cardinal points are believed to have spiritual guardians called watchtowers.

reniaa

I am a born in JW 3rd generation been lapse for 10 years now but I can honestly say I have never seen a tie with a watchtower on or lapel badges, I cannot say the same about Crosses I don't even practise that religion and can't escape them, from the around the neck, too someone making a cross-shape in the air.

I don't doubt those badges exists somewhere but if a few brothers were foolish enough to do them then it doesn't validate your point unless my next question applies...... Is there a uniform code in the bethel were all the ties have watchtowers on them and people are given lapel badges with watchtowers on them to wear in the bethel as part of their uniform? this is a serious question, If this is part of their uniform like the cross is spread all over clergy clothing in a multiplicity of christian faiths then I will agree with your point.

The biggest point that is missing on this thread is paganism isn't just about origin but also about usage! is something that has pagan origins being used in the same way as it originally intended with those pagan origins?

You can definately say this of the cross it's always been a symbol of diety and worship from it's pagan roots onwards, Now lets look at JW usage of the Watchtower it the symbol on the front of one of their magazine and the lapsed title of the organisation (say watchtower and tract society to average person they'll go "Huh?" say Jehovah's witness and they'll know who your talking about)

I just don't think the pagan arguments on this thread are very strong. You may disagree but i think original post sounds like the appologist trying to drag up a pagan link and comparative equality between the Cross and the watchtower which just doesn't stand up to close scrutiny.

55

Cross is a pagan symbol, watchtower is a pagan symbol too

by Noelle in

jw
friends

you all jehovah witnesses that said jesus didn't die on a cross but on a stake your wrong because the romans were pagans and what better way to crucify someone than on a pagan symbol.

i have a fact that you need to listen to as well, the watchtower which you symbolize is a pagan symbol as well.

oh no how can that be you ask, well let me tell you.. in ceremonial magic and some traditions of wicca and neopaganism, the four cardinal points are believed to have spiritual guardians called watchtowers.

reniaa

It doesnt take a huge mental leap to see that this wouldnt have escaped Russells notice when he made this change given his links with Occultism. Whilst it is speculation, it could be reasonably argued that he used this symbolism to gain credibility in circles where occultism and freemasonry were prominent. The alternative view that suggests he chose it purely from a scripture in the old testament seems a little unlikely given the above.

hi diamond blue i'm glad you admit the speculation because it is in my opinion a very big leap, Yes CT Russell liked his pyramids and if he had called it "The Pyramid" and had a big one of them on the front of the magazine we would be having a different conversation and I would be agreeing with you but....

he used a symbol thats has scriptural back up and there is no evidence of anything other than scriptural basis used in this case and it would be speculating to say otherwise.

Basically this thread can only say that watchtower may have some obscure pagan roots which can be said of anything pictorially but certainly can bring no connection between this and its usage by ct russell, Unlike the cross which was chosen as a direct result of pagan imagery and can be proved so!

55

Cross is a pagan symbol, watchtower is a pagan symbol too

by Noelle in

jw
friends

you all jehovah witnesses that said jesus didn't die on a cross but on a stake your wrong because the romans were pagans and what better way to crucify someone than on a pagan symbol.

i have a fact that you need to listen to as well, the watchtower which you symbolize is a pagan symbol as well.

oh no how can that be you ask, well let me tell you.. in ceremonial magic and some traditions of wicca and neopaganism, the four cardinal points are believed to have spiritual guardians called watchtowers.

reniaa

I think I made my comparative point quite clearly, I don't have a little watchtower around my neck or worship a shrine watchtower but this thread makes a comparson between a cross and a watchtower.

So ok so both a catholic and a JW would argue that the cross and the watchtower are just symbols...so weres the difference?

In usage!

Idolatory = Worship of a cult image, an object venerated as the representation as a deity

can we apply this to cross and watchtower? I'll leave that one for you guys to decide.

but in the end if the watchtower was so important we would never had zion's watchtower changed to Jehovah's witness.

As to the paganity argument, just google pagan cross and pagan watchtower, The Cross is in a totally different ball park as it was chosen as a direct result of those pagan origins! which just can't be said of Wts's choosing the watchtower symbol as anything more than something of scriptural origin only.

If you can prove to me that the watchtower was chosen because of it's pagan roots and not its scriptural roots by the WTs than you have a point!

55

Cross is a pagan symbol, watchtower is a pagan symbol too

by Noelle in

jw
friends

you all jehovah witnesses that said jesus didn't die on a cross but on a stake your wrong because the romans were pagans and what better way to crucify someone than on a pagan symbol.

i have a fact that you need to listen to as well, the watchtower which you symbolize is a pagan symbol as well.

oh no how can that be you ask, well let me tell you.. in ceremonial magic and some traditions of wicca and neopaganism, the four cardinal points are believed to have spiritual guardians called watchtowers.

reniaa

Erm....why does the WT have so little objectivity ?

Throwing a totally unrelated strawman argument at me does not change the point in hand, that we have heavily biased threads making comparitive studies that wildly exaggerate the importance of an example to give an eroneous impression.

55

Cross is a pagan symbol, watchtower is a pagan symbol too

by Noelle in

jw
friends

you all jehovah witnesses that said jesus didn't die on a cross but on a stake your wrong because the romans were pagans and what better way to crucify someone than on a pagan symbol.

i have a fact that you need to listen to as well, the watchtower which you symbolize is a pagan symbol as well.

oh no how can that be you ask, well let me tell you.. in ceremonial magic and some traditions of wicca and neopaganism, the four cardinal points are believed to have spiritual guardians called watchtowers.

reniaa

I'll have to check my sideboard with a little watchtower on it and candles either side that I worship and the little watchtower shrine at the local KH that i kneel in front of and kiss the little ramparts....

Comparing cross worship to a little symbol on a magazine, is like comparing a blue whale to a single cell organism! why do these latest batch of threads have so little objectivity in them?

33

Judge Rutherford's Air Conditioning at Bethel

by VM44 in

i recall reading long ago (so long ago i don't recall where) that someone asked judge rutherford why his office at bethel, brooklyn had an air conditioning unit while the workers in the printing factory below had to work in the heat.. rutherford's answer was that the air conditioning unit was a gift!.

does anyone also recall reading this?.

wouldn't rutherford feel a little guilty about enjoying cool air while the people downstairs were working all day under hot and humid conditions?.

reniaa

You don't think this thread is a little petty? hmmm air conditioning ooo how terrible but as I pointed out earlier the pope head of the catholic church besides having a private jet has his own city filled with treasures, i'm betting the popes got air conditioning too ^^

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCAKVXXsx2g vatican treasures

now what about scientology leaders do they get air conditioning?

The church's founder, science-fiction writer L. Ron Hubbard, chose Clearwater because it was sunny, close to an airport and near the water. Each year, 15,000 Scientologists from every continent study at the opulent Fort Harrison Hotel, a city landmark that the church secretly purchased under an assumed name in 1975.

yes inside the luxury hotel ^^

Can we have a little objectivity here please!

45

What do you think about small children commenting in the meetings?

by asilentone in

jw
friends

.

reniaa

Lol, I only remember doing the "The greatest teacher book" about 3 times in a row at bookstudy, I got to know jesus's life in vivid technicolour but I also liked the picture of him with curly hair, bearded and dark jewish looking so different from the white arian blu-eyed and inexplicably greasy looking blonde/brown hair in TV/Movie portrayals of him that continue to this day...

Seriously Mouthy I think you and I went to different KH if you think jesus wasn't mentioned a great deal but yes he was always in second place to jehovah and your right we weren't encouraged to worship jesus but in that case I take my cue from jesus's words himself who never wanted to be worshiped, he always put his father first.

6

ISRAEL FINKELSTEIN INTERVIEW IN NEW SCIENTIST

by badboy in

jw
friends

professor of archaelogy at tel aviv university, he believes that many ot stories likeexodus and jericho didn't happen are fiction.

reniaa

Actually the evidence is there but very contested atm.

A destruction of Jericho's walls dates archaeologically to around 1550 BC in the 16th century BC at the end of the Middle Bronze Age, by a siege or an earthquake in the context of a burn layer, called City IV destruction. Opinions differ as to whether they are the walls referred to in the Bible. According to one biblical chronology, the Israelites destroyed Jericho after its walls fell out around 1407 BC: the end of the 15th century. Originally, John Garstang's excavation in the 1930s dated Jericho's destruction to around 1400 BC, in confirmation, but like much early biblical archaeology, his work became criticised for using the Bible to interpret the evidence rather than letting the facts on the ground draw their own conclusions. Kathleen Kenyon's excavation in the 1950s redated it to around 1550 BC, a date that most archaeologists support. [9] [10] In 1990, Bryant Wood critiqued Kenyon's work after her field notes became fully available. Observing ambiguities and relying on the only available carbon dating of the burn layer, which yielded a date of 1410 BC plus or minus 40 years, Wood dated the destruction to this carbon dating, confirming Garstang and the biblical chronology. Unfortunately, this carbon date was itself the result of faulty calibration. In 1995, Hendrik J. Bruins and Johannes van der Plicht used high-precision radiocarbon dating for eighteen samples from Jericho, including six samples of charred cereal grains from the burn layer, and overall dated the destruction to an average 1562 BC add or subtract 38 years. [11] [12] [13] Kenyon's date of around 1550 BC is widely accepted based on this methodology of dating. Notably, many other Canaanite cities were destroyed around this time.
The widespread destructions of the 16th century BC are often linked with the expulsion of the Hyksos from Egypt around this time. The 1st-century historian Josephus, in Against Apion, identified the Exodus of Israelites according to the Bible as the Expulsion of the Hyksos according to the Egyptian texts.
A few scholars follow the controversial new chronology of David Rohl, which postulates that the entire mainstream Egyptian chronology is 300 years misplaced; with the consequence that, among other things, the exodus would be dated to the 16th or 17th century BC, and hence the archaeological record on Jericho would be much more aligned with the biblical account. Despite this, a number of literalist Christians, most prominently the respected Egyptologist Kenneth Kitchen, have vehemently attacked Rohl's chronology, since it introduces a number of other problems and issues (such as identifying the biblical Shishak as Ramses II, rather than the far more obviously named Shoshenq).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jericho

33

Judge Rutherford's Air Conditioning at Bethel

by VM44 in

i recall reading long ago (so long ago i don't recall where) that someone asked judge rutherford why his office at bethel, brooklyn had an air conditioning unit while the workers in the printing factory below had to work in the heat.. rutherford's answer was that the air conditioning unit was a gift!.

does anyone also recall reading this?.

wouldn't rutherford feel a little guilty about enjoying cool air while the people downstairs were working all day under hot and humid conditions?.

reniaa

I wo0nder if the pope travels first class hmmm oops no he travels in his private jet.

Resolved Question
Show me another »
Does the Pope have his own private jet?
Another question is how would a religious organization be able to fund for something as expensive and frivilous as a private jet, aren't priests supposed to live in pioused poverty and humility?
2 weeks ago

Best Answer - Chosen by Asker
The pope doesn't own anything. the jet is owned by Vatican City