hi again ak - jeff as usual your reply gets me thinking
This is a nice thought-provoking discussion. I am glad you started this thread.
I think though, that honestly, until one eliminates the Jw perspective from his viewpoint, he can not truly understand what the Bible says. Why do I say so?
The Bible contains multiplistic views of much of what Jw's claim is 'Biblical principle'.
- Throughout the OT the 'men of old' freely engaged in pre-marital or extra-marital sex. Then along comes Jesus and condemns sex outside a single partner.
- The OT presents God as a vindictive God that kills hundreds of millions in 'righteous warfare'. The bigger than life heroes of the Bible are all bloody. David was 'loved by Jehovah' for his killing of tens of thousands. Then Jesus comes along and tells us to 'turn the other cheek', to 'love our neighbors', and to treat the fallen in charitable ways.
- Paul tells us to 'let no man judge you in observance of a festival'. Yet Jw's teach us that we should avoid birthdays, holidays.
- The Israelites were extremely political, and the Jews of Jesus' day were looking for relief from the Romans through a 'messiah' of deliverance. The Christians that accepted him wanted the same. They were not, and did not, bow to the oppression that comes from political states without any effort to improve the political climate for themselves.
So which ones should be adopted? And why would a book of such great contrasting 'principle' be able to ever give us clear direction for life?
on the face of it you are right these would seem conflicting but are they, some you cite as examples are just the bible's author being honest about what certain people got upto, King David commited murder and yet he was loved by God but did that mean God sanctioned David's actions? if we read the whole issue on kings, God was reluntant to allow kings in the first place but he was persuaded to his ultimate regret,is that because he saw what making someone a ruler would do to them?
if i accept the bible i have to accept Gods right to inflict capital punishment were he chooses and believe he had good reason too, condemnation after the fact is easy to do, as we saw with iraq, one week i was having discussions telling me how good our leaders were for going to war next the tide of opinion quickly turned and the once approving people bacame hotly against it.
Jesus didn't touch on politics much "the give ceasar's things back to ceasar" being one of the few times, does that one principle allow for us to jump in and become deeply political, I am heartically sick of news about he American election and i'm english! so how much worse it is if you live in america i can only ask? how much longer is it before we get a new president and all this political roadshow ends?
So which ones should be adopted? And why would a book of such great contrasting 'principle' be able to ever give us clear direction for life?
I can only answer this from a personal standpoint, I am happy in seeing contrasts are about the maturing of a race but jesus himself used OT scripture and law on which to base his principles so T am of the opinion they are not as conflicting as you believe. if anything jesus is stricter in my upinion because he puts greater emphasis on self regulation.
None of that is really a carry over from Jw's. I am just that way. Perhaps it is genetic. Why do I not go out and take advantage of my freedom? Because my moral character originates inside myself. It is not from outside, from some written dictum. Such dictums seem to shift in the wind, depending on who interprets them anyway. My values are not derived from a book. especially such a contradictory one.
Jw's believe that I am a blood-drinking, idol worshipping, fornicating, Bible burning, lunatic. I am not. Yet they wish to label me as such because it legitimizes their hatred for me for daring to leave their religion.
I have known hundreds of fornicating Jw's over my lifetime. Many of them worship their mates, their cars, their houses, or themselves. Many of them spend less time reading the Bible than my Catholic neighbors do. They have quiet Thanksgiving Dinners or make sure that presents for the kids are given around certain holidays, conveniently. They drink more than my Muslim neighbors. They watch entertainment that my Amish neighbors would cringe over seeing. The divorce rate in the local congregation seems to be quite high. Must be some fornication going on in that nice Bible believing bunch over there. Since I left the organization, I know of 4 couples in the local that were divorced and remarried. I did not. After 34 years of marriage, we stick together better than about 90% of Jw's that I know.
The Jw's are just human. They don't use Bible principles anym. ore than I do. They just claim they do
didn't jesus make the point somewere that we can be naturally morale I forget the scripture?
The principle of I live a good life, I am good to others show love etc don't kill cheat etc isn't that enough? is one that is used a lot and I think also comes up in the bible, rich man and camel
The Rich Young Man
16 Now a man came up to Jesus and asked, "Teacher, what good thing must I do to get eternal life?"17 "Why do you ask me about what is good?" Jesus replied. "There is only One who is good. If you want to enter life, obey the commandments."
18 "Which ones?" the man inquired.
Jesus replied, " 'Do not murder, do not commit adultery, do not steal, do not give false testimony, 19 honor your father and mother,' [d] and 'love your neighbor as yourself.' [e] "
20 "All these I have kept," the young man said. "What do I still lack?"
21 Jesus answered, "If you want to be perfect, go, sell your possessions and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me."
22 When the young man heard this, he went away sad, because he had great wealth.
23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, "I tell you the truth, it is hard for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven. 24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God."
25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"
26 Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
27 Peter answered him, "We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?"
28 Jesus said to them, "I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother [f] or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30 But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.
what is the point of jesus saying all this if just being a goodchristian is enough? lol i'm asking more questions than you ak-jeff
The only thing i will take you up on is your final character assasination of Jw's you've known, i'll agree you'll get all types, good and bad in any organisation but you make it sound like the org makes them worse in some way which i think is misleading,
but getting tired now so forgive me if my replies are beginning to lack coherency :)
reniaa