I feel your pain, even as an UBM...I did find some solice in reading "Captive of a Concept". It gave me peace in knowing that my wife is honestly believes that she is doing God's will by preaching. Like you, I just wish she knew that she's a victim of the WTBS. Most of my anger is directed at them. Try to remember as an elder, he's just doing what they say. I did battle with my wife's elder by email for week, and ultimately we came to an understanding that we're not that far apart, of course he's been the one assigned to bring me into the fold, but we honestly respect each other and I find that surprising(he is open to reading more than just WT pubs & the NWT) "Captives" may help put you in a frame of mind that will allow you to connect with your elder dad...Good luck!
Posts by kzjw
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19Why do I cringe? Why am I still so bitter?
by oompa inmade my own personal statement by skipping the memorial, and then went to the next regular ol sunday meeting with my wife.
i tried hard not to pay attention, but still went nuts when the wt said things clearly not in the bible (which i don't even believe anymore!).
so why does this still bother me?
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26
What is up with the obesity doctrine?
by kzjw ini'm a ubm, and the wife went to the assembly.
she didn't discuss the obesity issue with me, but my mother-in-law is obese.
so i'm just wondering how that would make her feel?
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kzjw
I'm a UBM, and the wife went to the Assembly. She didn't discuss the Obesity issue with me, but my mother-in-law is obese. So I'm just wondering how that would make her feel? I need more info on wha happened...
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Previous Memorial dates
by kzjw inmessagedoes anyone know the dates of the past 2 memorials?
i was looking at judaism 101's calendar & nisan 14 is on april 19th.
i asked an elder at the memorial & he told me march 22 was nisan 14. so i was just curious as to how i can stand in a kh, ask an senior elder a question and be lied to.
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kzjw
Message Does anyone know the dates of the past 2 memorials? I was looking at Judaism 101's calendar & Nisan 14 is on April 19th. I asked an elder at the memorial & he told me March 22 was Nisan 14. So I was just curious as to how I can stand in a KH, ask an senior elder a question and be lied to. -
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What "secrets" has my wife hidden since her baptism?
by kzjw ini'm a "believe what you want" kinda guy, so when my wife got involved w/ bible study 16 years ago, i didn't think much of it.
what could be wrong with having bible knowledge?
then came teh teocratic put downs because i didn't believe what she did.
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kzjw
Wow...
That's a wealth of information to digest. Thanx 4 the input. She' s coming in now...Anything more you got would be appreciated
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How was my wife told to handle a un-believer?
by kzjw ini'm a "believe what you want" kinda guy, so when my wife got involved w/ bible study 16 years ago, i didn't think much of it.
what could be wrong with having bible knowledge?
then came teh teocratic put downs because i didn't believe what she did.
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kzjw
I'm a "Believe what you want" kinda guy, so when my wife got involved w/ Bible study 16 years ago, I didn't think much of it. what could be wrong with having Bible knowledge? Then came teh teocratic put downs because I didn't believe what she did. Then came baptism and the whole game changed! The ups & downs she followed in the doctirnes to the point of where it pxxxed me off, and I began my 1st research a decade or so ago. I took the hardline approach, big mistake. She systematically hid me from the doctirne of the Borg, because I questioned it's very existence. Leaning to the elders for advice, while the hwhole time I'm looking like a tyrannical axxhole!
I'm on my 2nd research string, better knowledge(Captives of a Concept, Crisis of Concsience, Watchtower comments & this site) and Iv'e even developed an "understanding" of sorts with one of the elders form her congo(no, I don't trust him) But I'm finding that the more I learn the less I know. Who will enlighten me on things I may have missed about how she was told to handle an "unbelieving" husband?
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What "secrets" has my wife hidden since her baptism?
by kzjw ini'm a "believe what you want" kinda guy, so when my wife got involved w/ bible study 16 years ago, i didn't think much of it.
what could be wrong with having bible knowledge?
then came teh teocratic put downs because i didn't believe what she did.
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kzjw
I'm a "Believe what you want" kinda guy, so when my wife got involved w/ Bible study 16 years ago, I didn't think much of it. what could be wrong with having Bible knowledge? Then came teh teocratic put downs because I didn't believe what she did. Then came baptism and the whole game changed! The ups & downs she followed in the doctirnes to the point of where it pxxxed me off, and I began my 1st research a decade or so ago. I took the hardline approach, big mistake. She systematically hid me from the doctirne of the Borg, because I questioned it's very existence. Leaning to the elders for advice, while the hwhole time I'm looking like a tyrannical axxhole!
I'm on my 2nd research string, better knowledge(Captives of a Concept, Crisis of Concsience, Watchtower comments & this site) and Iv'e even developed an "understanding" of sorts with one of the elders form her congo(no, I don't trust him) But I'm finding that the more I learn the less I know. Who will enlighten me on things I may have missed about how she was told to handle an "unbelieving" husband?
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14
Dealing with an elder
by kzjw inthiis one's long, but here's a letter i sent in open dialog with the elder of my wife's congregation...let's hear the input... i appreciate your candor, and admittedly i can see an effort to not be overbearing in your response to my questions.
my main concern is trusting the organization.
when i read john 14(the whole chapter because i"m never satified with just a verse), i don't see anything that provides for some "organization" to lead us to the salvation that we all seek in our christian walk.
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kzjw
Thiis one's long, but here's a letter I sent in open dialog with the elder of my wife's congregation...Let's hear the input... I appreciate your candor, and admittedly I can see an effort to not be overbearing in your response to my questions. My main concern is trusting the organization. When I read John 14(the whole chapter because I"m never satified with just a verse), I don't see anything that provides for some "organization" to lead us to the salvation that we all seek in our christian walk. Of course JW's lean to Matthew 24:45-47 which is also bible based. However if we look at the question of whether Jesus came to approve the organization in the spring of 1919, would we not have to look at this blessed event from an historical perspective? If Jesus acknowledged the Society as his “faithful and discreet slave organization” and therefore appointed them “over all his earthly interests” in 1919 then there is a chance that they are still God’s organization today. But if he didn’t make that appointment in 1919, then would you agree that there is no chance they could be such an organization no matter what they are teaching today? If so, The only one way to know what decision Jesus would have made in 1919, and know that the Society could be God’s organization today is to examine the same teachings they say Jesus examined in 1918-1919 to see if they could have passed such an exam. Jesus would have of course only been looking at what the society was teaching up until 1919, and most of those materials are no longer printed(though available on the internet). Since I know that is not really an option, the Jehovah's Witnesses " Proclaimers of God's Kingdom" should be an adequate source. According to Matthew 7:2 and Society standards the criteria should be; 1) The Right Teachings 2) The proper Time(as reffered to by Brother F. Franz) 3) Teaching that God revealed his word & 4)Rejected by Human Wisdom (per the Watchtower p114 June 1st,2001) The second coming... Jesus would have noticed what they were teaching about his Second Coming, or “invisible presence” t. – Matthew 24: Today it says he came in 1914 - Then it was 1874.(Proclaimers p 46-47 & p133) Conclusion: 1874 was 1) Not the right date 2)Nor the right time to be teaching it 3)it was not revealed in God's word and 4)It was a date Brother Russell had been given by Nelson Barber in 1876(rejected by human wisdom) Jesus returned in 1914, and neither President Russell nor President Rutherford ever knew it? God "selected" these men for his sole "channel of communication” but never communicateted when His Son had returned? What are the chances that “the God of truth” would deliberately allow his earthly channel to misinform the whole world about his Son’s return for almost seven decades (1876-1943)? Luke’s parallel account in chapter 12 says Jesus said that he would be “happy” only if ‘on arriving (he)found them watching for his return.’ But he would not have found them watching in 1914 because they believed he had already arrived forty years earlier. Was what was going on in the Society’s history up to 1919 that agree with the Sociiety's interpretation of Matthew 24:45-47? I'll save you the trouble of looking for the Society's answer, it's right here; "Those in Christendom professing to be Jesus’ disciples who did not discern his invisible presence, from and after 1914, therefore proved to be asleep and unworthy of receiving any privileges in connection with dispensing spiritual food." If proved that Russel, Rutherford and possibly Knorr were asleep and unworthy of receiving Jesus’ appointment, then wouldn’t the Society’s identical lack of discernment mean that they too were asleep and therefore just as unworthy of receiving any privileges in the dispensing of spiritual food? This is just a portion of waht really worries me, and I realize that Proverbs "explanation of light" is the standard answer, but it is obvious that today as the Society teached that Charles Russell was not Jesus’ “faithful and discreet slave,” then what they were teaching from 1897 down till 1919 was not true. Throughout the Bible, GOd has chosen many humans to carry out his work, they made human errors, but I believe they got God's law correct. That did not happen in this case...If in 1919 Jesus (or anyone else) had asked the question in Matthew 24:45, “Who really is the faithful and discreet slave?” they would have answered according to what they believed – “Charles Taze Russell.” There wasn’t anyone on earth or in heaven who could change Rutherford ’s mind until he himself changed it in 1927. The Societys history does not fit the interpretation of Matthew 24:45-47. The Society explains it in the January 15, 1994 Watchtower where they say, “In 1919 that slave was identified as the remnant of anointed Christians.” But that’s not true. They didn’t identify that slave this way until 1927 . Don't forget, for the purpose of this historical examination, the date we are dealing with would have to be up until 1919, that is afterall time the Society says Jesus made his examination.. Speaking of Improper Food at an Improper time, In February 0f 1918 wasn't Rutherford begining the ampaign for "Millions Now Living Will Never Die"? 1)Not the Right teaching, 2)The Wrong time, 3)Teaching Not revealed by God in the Bible, 4)Human Wisdom.. This is what makes me worry everytime I hear: THE SOCIETY THE ORGANIZATION JEHOVAH’S ORGANIZATION JEHOVAH’S VISIBLE ORGANIZATION GOD’S THEOCRATIC ORGANIZATION JEHOVAH’S EARTHLY ORGANIZATION GOD’S CHANNEL OF COMMUNICATION GOD’S SPIRIT-DIRECTED ORGANIZATION THE FAITHFUL & DISCREET SLAVE ORGANIZATION I know this is your leadership, but there's a history that is sometimes ignored by the Society, and to hear them based on my beliefs and John 14, make me fear for my family's salvation. I know you are a good person, as are many of the people in the congregation, but I'm always on guard to not say the wrong thing. I know there would be consequenses that would make my wife uncomfortable. But it also leaves me in a dilema of how to sit still and get used tohearing things that my experience and faith tell me may not be true. For example, the terms, “errors”"mistakes”“misplaced zeal”“unrealized hopes” “previous failures”“misinterpretations”“misunderstandings”“our understanding”“misplaced optimism”“wrong expectations”“hopes and xpectations”“premature expectations”“misplaced expectations”“disappointed expectations”“errors in their teachings”“incomplete concepts”“inaccurate concepts”“serious disappointments”“formerly cherished views”“mistakes in their understanding”“views in need of refinement”“an expressed opinion” “cherished errors”“wrong beliefs”“old truths”“past truths”“expectations needing some adjustment”and “matters on which corrections of viewpoint have been needed”, are all terms that I run into when being informed about the history of the Society. Each of these "buzz" words, for lack of a better term, are tied to events proclaimed or doctrines esablished. we live in a "gray" when it comes to matters of the "world" but since the Bible shows us our path to salvation, doesn't it read "black & white" for you? Here's the response; Wow! to say that I appreciate your research would be an understatement. Not sure I understand where your going with this though. I can see where you might have some issues with the WT Society based on your research. It's easy for me though. I look at what has been done in my life, also the good that is being done and taught worldwide, and I still believe its the best way of life.As a family head I would much rather for my family to pursue this way of life over any other. I can't trust research where this Franze guy has posed himself of as a former president of the WT Society. From what I have been taught he is the nephew of Fred Franz ( See Attachments) and was disfellowshipped before becoming a sworn enemy of the WT Society and an apostate. He has no credibility in my eyes. I'm sure you are sincerely searching for th truth, but I think this is where we have to agree to disagree theologically. Lets say for example that everything this guy says is true, where does that leave us. What is he offering in it's place? If it's something better, as I told you before, I'm all ears. But I can't give up what's working for me in my life for nothing just because someone casts doubts on what I have been taught. One scripture that comes to mind is at Acts 5:38,39 (Actually the passage from verse 29 to 39 would help) The point Gamaliel made is an excelent point. If this scheme or work (WT Society) is from men it will be overthrown, BUT if it is from God we might be found fighters actually against God.
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Is there a WT Comments coming this week?
by kzjw ini need my "fix" so i can prepare for the weekend..
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kzjw
I need my "fix" so I can prepare for the weekend..
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22
The angst of dealing with family when they are still in and you are not...
by Layla33 ini don't think you ever truly make peace with it, somehow you learn to maneveur and swim in it like most things.
i have been out for so long, it's almost like a shadowy memory when i was in, but for my family it is all they have ever known and dared to know.. i feel for the people whose parents have cut them out completely, but mine never truly did that.
i guess we just loved each other a little too much to even think about losing the other completely.
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kzjw
Yeah, we feel that pain everyday...I'm still trying to retrieve my wife from the JW's, no small task. I believed when she began her search of christian freedom that her passion would guide her. Thinking JW's were harmless "doorknockers w/ good news" I was passive, and dismissed it as a harmless personal search we all must take. I know I've taken mine. But once the Society came into play & she was baptized, the game changed drastiacally!
So now. I find my self in theocratic warfare(though witnesses claim to have stopped this practice, it still exists). In the battle take a read of a letter sent to an elder in my wife's congregation. It is in referernce to a CD I was given because of my questions about the Society. Bro Brown is the spokesperson for the Watchtower...
Dear ________
Just wanted to thank you for the gesture of Bro Brown's CD. It attempted to answer the basic questions, but there were some discrepencies in some of his answers based on my research and what I'm hearing at the KH: 1) Brown was asked if his religion was the only truth...his response had nothing to do with the question. I have heard from more than one speaker, and in alomost every Watchtower Study that "the only way is through "God's Organization". This would rerfer to the members of the governing body, correct? 2) The moderator asked "Describe being a Jehovah's Witness ", Brown replied tat it was "basically a lifestyle". I've always believed religion is a God given right, not a lifestyle. 3) Next question: "Who was the first JW?" Brown moved to the theological standard answer of "Abel", then spoke of the small bible group of the 1870's led by Russell, for the purpose of the "restorations of pure teachings". He never once mentioned that the term "JW" wasn't coined until 1931 after the organizational split of the"Bible Students" in that time. You can't claim BCE if you've only been around since the 1870's, can you? 4) The moderator asked to be enlightened on the view of "Political Neutrality", His answer must have come from "new light" shown to the organization, because there is documentation that shows American JW's were encouraged to support the war efforts by displaying flags in WWII , meanwhile Rutherford was playing to ends against the middle in the name of turning a profit. Here's an excerpt of a letter to Adolf Hitler ; "The present government of Germany has declared emphatically against Big Business oppressors and in opposition to the wrongful religious influence in the political affairs of the nation. Such is exactly our position:...Instead of being against the principles advocated by the government of Germany, we stand squarely for such principles and point out that Jehovah God through Christ Jesus will bring about the full realization of these principles..." This letter was written after Hitler's campaign to rid Germany of JW's (as you have stated), through a deal with the Catholics. Additionally, I can't understand that if Brown says "JW's love the countries in which they live", then why is it so important that you don't participate in elections. Remove the fact that you & I both have relatives somewhere in our lineage who fought and died for our right to vote, what about the love of democracy that JW in America claim to have? Why would the organization hold it's members back from preserving a way of life, when everything they decide for it's members is done by a two-thirds majority vote. Are the governing body the only JW's allowed to vote, even if it's in the organization? 5) Brother Brown mentioned that in the KH "everything is free, no collections are taken" (true statement). But what about the publishing revenues?(in 2001 $951Million estimated) In 1990, did the organization not join in a lawsuit with Jimmy Swaggert and the Church of Scientology in order to avoid paying taxes? http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?navby=search&court=US&case=/us/493/378.html Fact of the matter is that this interview was done in 2002, by a moderator who was not trained to ask the hard questions that a radio professional should. While I told you it gave me some insight on JW's, the answers were strictly memorized from what the governing body told this man from North Carolina to say. I have a couple of questions, that I'd love to find answers to; If Jesus came to inspect the society in 1918-19 (Matthew 24:-45-57, wether invisibly or otherwise), who gave witness to this blessed event? Was it Rutherford? If so, was he asleep, or just passed out? I think we both know he was an alcoholic. Additionally, what about Bonnie & Berta? Bonnie was only 16 when she became the personal secretary & travel companion of a divorced man. Then Bonnie married a COca-Cola exec, an "unbeliever" and was allowed to remain at Bethel. Berta came along 30 days later to Bethel, and almost immediately was placed as his dietian and travel companion, though she was only an LPN with no dietary experience(Rutherford already had a dietician, so what made her special?) Why is it that Russell built the end of days on " Jupiter Aligning with Uranus in the house of Aquarius"(obviously Astrology, which is now forbidden) and the Great Pyramid of Gizeh (wouldn't that be idolotry?) Additionally, it is noted that he was not a very well educated man, therefore, how is it that you believe he translated the Emphatic Diaglott correctl? I'm reasonably intelligent & might try to translate something like that, but would never have the confidence to call it doctrine. i liken it to how it is said we stumble through the bible for truth lent only to our own understanding. Moe, these are just a few questions that have been running through my mind daily for the past few months, since my marital issues arose. I hope that yo'll not consider me an apostate, but strive to understand that based on the history of the Watchtower, it is at best difficult to get used to. I offer this scripture; “Remember those who are governing you, who have spoken the word of God to you, and as you contemplate how their conduct turns out imitate their faith.” (Heb. 13:7). On the other hand if you "labeled" me, then I will understand that you would have to look to the guidance of Brother Freeman and others to address this situation. If so, that is fine, but I'd prefer your confidence because I do consider you a friend. These are just facts that I sifted through, and some maybe unfounded, but I think I backed up what was discussed. In closing, I am a firm believer that if you don't know where you've been, you'll never figure out where you are going (I think the same holds true for the organization). I was a Baptist like you for a few decades, and I've seen more "new light" from the organization since Kenya's baptism than from the Baptist & Catholics combined. I notice that the elders are always bringing forth publications to help, but what about publications that show another side from the perspective of a JW? If you'd like to know more, please feel free to call me. With respect for you, as I know of you...