Well just gonna bump me own thread with a minor update.
All is going well, my wife has been reading the JWfacts site, CoC and God Delusion, as well as the Proclaimers book, which she has found the most damning of all.
Whats been good for me, is she is now experiencing all the stupid 'reasoning' she gave me when I first left, from her mother and other witness friends. Things like "yes, theyve made mistakes, but look at the big picture ..." and all that other sort of infuriating, non-responses to actual accusations.
So she's pretty much out in her mind, but still put in a FS report for July. She's not ready to make the next step of actually not reporting or going to meetings yet. But I don't think there is any way in hell she's ever gonna be a believer anymore.
I think I can safely say its "Game Over", and other than working out how to manage our lives around family members and 'friends', we can now get on with living life as non-cultists! FREEDOM!
Posts by 10p
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64My wife is gonna look at apostate info
by 10p ini never thought we'd be here.
after a long discussion last night, my wife now wants to know the 'other side of the story'.
what made me leave.
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10p
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Thinking of an method to get my wife to think about the organization.......
by insearchoftruth inam still trying to come to a course of action to deal with my wife and her renewed zeal for the wts.
one new detail that i find interesting is she was assigned a sister to study with and the gal called somewhat early yesterday morning and my wife chewed her up and told her she does not want to study with her, she want so study with sister whatever.
i am sure that the sister that called was somewhat taken aback by this.. i think a slant i may be able to use is the anointed/fds since my wife really did not know anything about this and especially since she gave me the phone when she was talking to the first sister she knows and i asked her some questions and she confirmed that they were one in the same as well as how people can fall from being anointed by not be 'faithful'.
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10p
Well, I can only speak from my own experience ...
No facts or figures would get through. In fact, keeping what I knew a secret seemed more effective - because then instead of it being a 'battle', her curiosity was getting the better of her.
I know its not the same for all, but I became a better person after leaving, and my wife was taken aback by that. Then by not throwing any apostate stuff at her, but just saying I had very good reasons for leaving, and had done a lot of research etc, it made her wonder. What DID I know the she didnt?!!?
Somewhere I read that if a 'true believer' survives an attack on their faith, they come out even more zealous. In other words, if you try and throw the UN scandal at her, and she comes away with a plausible explanation for it that she is happy with, then she will be even more faithful to the organization. Keeping in mind you probably don't get an opportunity to sit down and discuss someting like that for the hours and hours it would require, in the calm and reasonable fashion it deserves ... and the chances you are going to lose any particular 'attack' are pretty high. And that will just make it harder for future 'attacks'.
I tended to just stick up for myself and my decision, stating that I was doing what I felt was right after thorough research, plenty of reflection and prayer. I didn't let her see me as someone 'misled by satan', but as someone who was bold and fearless .... that I am one of those who would have left off being a jew to follow Jesus, back in that time. How many witnesses today would be like that - how many, brought up as a jew, would even have *listened* to Jesus (who the jewish religious leaders were warning their followers about, saying he was from the devil, just like the organsiation today demonises apostates). That was my main approach to getting through to my wife - only once she decided she wanted to know this 'apostate' info did we start talking about things like Russell's pyramids and Rutherfords alcoholism. It was only then that she could see these things objectively anyway.
All the best, and I hope you get through. I know in my case, it has made my marriage orders of magnitude better than it was.
PS. bear in mind, it took 2 years in my case. 2 long, painful years, and I never thought it would have this happy ending. I'm still on cloud 9.
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10p
g'day from the other ozzie state - NZ. (Auckland to be precise)
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64
My wife is gonna look at apostate info
by 10p ini never thought we'd be here.
after a long discussion last night, my wife now wants to know the 'other side of the story'.
what made me leave.
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10p
arrggg. darn forum - it lost my other post!
Thank you everyone for your nice comments!
a minor update
after my wife spoke to her mother, it left me feeling weird. Bad, betrayed, distant. I'm not sure why, to be honest, but I just didn't feel good. So since monday I have been kinda distant from her. Well last night I told myself to sort myself out and be supportive, because she's going through worse! I reminded myself what it was like for me at first. So I reached out to her again, and we re-connected.
She has been reading more of CoC and The God Delusion. She finds it hard not to believe in a god, which is fine - at least she has an idea of why I think what I think. I'm not trying to force atheism on anyone! But although, out of fear, she sometimes slips a little back into the "JW camp", she quickly recognises that it is unhealthy. Like she said to me, if she knew her mother would leave, then she'd be completely fine. So its mostly a parental pressure that is keeping her "in".
We'll see where that all goes. I know at least 3 doctrinal things that her mother finds hard to believe too. She agreed with me many years ago about the 1260 days of Daniel thing (when I was an MS). She doesn't buy the "the end hasn't come yet so more can be saved" (another evidence that the society doesn't "believe" in children. there will always be more to save so long as kids are being born). And she finds some of the depraved barbarity of the Old Testament hard to swallow (like a woman raped to death being cut into 12 pieces and sent around the land. sick, very sick)
on a side note
My wife told me that they tried to ban pushchairs (prams) at the convention this year. There was a huge outcry from the mothers, and they had to send a letter saying it would be ok to have them, but just in a special reserved place of the auditorium. 'New Light for you' is right - they hate children.
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64
My wife is gonna look at apostate info
by 10p ini never thought we'd be here.
after a long discussion last night, my wife now wants to know the 'other side of the story'.
what made me leave.
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10p
i will never speak of anything of a religious nature ever again
hey, Oompa!
Actually, that may be a good idea. Once you feel like you are under attack, there is no negotiating. Give your wife a year or two off from any kind of mention of religious stuff. Work on yourself, get yourself right in your own head, and work on your marriage. It cant really be done properly, I know, but there is still a lot that can be done, even with a pink elephant between you.
I can honestly say in my case, that the scripture "won without a word" applied. Except I won her away from the cult, rather than into it :)
I said it before, logic and reason wont get through. I've always believed in the idea "give a man enough rope to hang himself, and he will." not a nice analogy, but the point is, give your wife the space to see it for herself and she will see it.
Witnesses, as you know, are immune to pressure or persecution - it actually makes them stronger. If she feels 'attacked' by you and your apostate information, it will make her resistance stronger.
Disclaimer : I don't know you at all, so my comments are based on many, many assumptions. Please forgive me if I've gotten some key things wrong, and bear in mind this is only my two-cents worth.
Still, best of luck, and don't give up!
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64
My wife is gonna look at apostate info
by 10p ini never thought we'd be here.
after a long discussion last night, my wife now wants to know the 'other side of the story'.
what made me leave.
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10p
more news
well, my wife told her mother she is questioning things. So that brought back the negative feelings and fear again. We will have to wait and see how her mother reacts. They didn't have a chance to talk much, and her mother didn't really say much.
So a little step backwards in a way, because now she is a bit scared again, and questioning herself if she's doing the right thing by questioning the society.
But she is actually more actively searching now, though, so I think its kind of brought things more to a head. She is actually reading CoC and reading up about JWs on wikipedia.
So I guess its all good ... It just made me feel a little odd though, like being reminded that I'm still the enemy, until she has proved in her head that it IS a cult. Its nowhere near as bad as that, because we are still very close and our relationship is good. But when she told me she'd spoken to her mother, I felt weird, and the only logical explanation for that feeling that I could come up with is that. Its funny sometimes how you can feel things without really knowing why you feel that way!
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64
My wife is gonna look at apostate info
by 10p ini never thought we'd be here.
after a long discussion last night, my wife now wants to know the 'other side of the story'.
what made me leave.
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10p
For those who are still following this thread ... another update.
My wife is feeling good inside. I can't believe how quickly she has let go of the fear and guilt. Where she was always a bit intellectually lazy, now she is lapping up information and digesting it like a thinking person! Her intelligence is really attractive to me! Its so nice, after all these years, to hear her say "I want to DO something with my life!"
We haven't gone through much yet. At this stage, she seems to be trying to think things through without any 'apostate' help. I think that way, she feels she hasn't been influenced by anyone else, and has just seen the light herself.
So I showed her the articles on oral sex from the Wtlib CDROM. You know what amazed even me, going down this path again? In the '83 article, in the footnote, it says "this is an amplification of ... " and then lists the two older articles, from '78 and '74. Well, the '74 article is hyperlinked, so you can just click on it, but the '78 article (Ray Franz's one) isnt linked, neither is it in the index. The only way to get to that article is to manually navigate to it. How pathetic!
I'll keep updating this thread, kinda like a blog, for those who are interested. I hope my wife will consider diarizing her thoughts, for the benefit of those who are trying to get their spouses to see the light.
But if there's one tip I could give others, its that no false doctrine, failed prophecy or scandal will get through (at least not to a person like my wife). Logic doesn't penetrate.
Have a good one! -
47
just a typical marital counseling session?????
by oompa inso how did it go some have asked?
at some point the lady therapist asked me what was probably my number one concern....it just came out...."i don't know if i can stay married to a jw"...wife burst into tears...and never let up...not even on the way back to drop me off at work...i also said in session i would prefer an open minded wife, and i don't think wife would pick me now either...not an unbeliever, not an overdrinker, and that marriage to me meant being able to share pretty much everything with one another, my feelings, my friends, my concerns, and that i did not like living a double life...and explained what that was too......she of course said she would stay in the marriage, and mentioned the adultery only rule...so i said it sounds like she feels she is stuck with me...she said it sounds like our marriage is already over....the lady says she does know for a fact that jw's do indeed get divorced without sex sins...cause she has counseled more that one couple like us...one in, one out....that ended with divorce.
i did say nice things about her...said the things i love.....and vice verse...and we both said we wanted the marriage to work....so at least a good basis for continuing the sessions.....the lady wants us to find common ground and just ignore the religious difference for now...i said great but how can we do that when the religion is all encompassing to my wife...it is everything....i will be glad to go to the ground if she can find it....but she never got a chance to find it yet...we ran out of time.
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10p
Obviously I'm not an expert ... but I think if you've got mental health problems, that is the greater issue in your marriage. Focus on that in the counseling. The JW life certainly is a huge contributor to bi-polar - my sister's bipolar improved immensely once she left the JWs, but nevertheless, any weakness on your part will be seen by your wife as the reason for your apostasy.
I'll give you an example. A family friend left the org a few years ago. He went round to his friends, told them he didnt believe it anymore, and was leaving 'the truth'. No one questioned him why - they didn't want to know the actual issues that caused him to leave. Once he was gone, stories started circulating that he had had porn addiction problems. Like instead of facing that he might have actually found out its not the truth, they started reasoning in their minds that he had left because of a porn addiction??!@? WTF!?!
In my experience, it was easier for me, because I'm naturally a nerd, good-two-shoes. When I left, for about 6 months I was angry and a bad person. But then I came right, and became a better husband and father than ever before. I've always remained reasonable, though sometimes I've slightly raised my voice when talking about religious issues. So then I found it easy to take the moral high ground, with absolutely no guilt on my shoulders, and basically say to my wife "The organisation is wrong. Its a cult. I have looked at both sides of the issue. I have reasoned on the information. YOU are the one who is too scared to look at this information. Its just words printed on paper. Who is the one here who is being irrational?" Something along those lines anyway. And she knew it. She was feeling guilty inside all this time, because she knew I was the better person.
I don't really know what your personal issues are Oompa, and I feel for you. I hope you see that I'm not judging you, but I believe you will need to try and sort out your own personal issues first, before your wife will ever be able to see that you've left the organisation for valid reasons, rather than because of your 'problems.' I could be wrong on all this, of course, but its just a point of view.
All the best, mate.
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64
My wife is gonna look at apostate info
by 10p ini never thought we'd be here.
after a long discussion last night, my wife now wants to know the 'other side of the story'.
what made me leave.
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64
My wife is gonna look at apostate info
by 10p ini never thought we'd be here.
after a long discussion last night, my wife now wants to know the 'other side of the story'.
what made me leave.
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10p
An update
Last night we stayed up till 2am talking. Really talking - like when you stay up all night when you are dating, and just talk for hours and hours, and share your thoughts and feelings about everything.
It's pretty much a sealed deal - she's outta there. She hasn't even really considered any 'apostate' reasoning yet. What opened her mind was the fact that witnesses are not allowed to inspect their own religion, while judging others ... and the ridiculous fear that surrounds the doubters. Its more the way I have been totally ignored by everyone (I'm a fader, not DF'ed) that got to her. Like, if her husband is so wrong, why don't the elders do something. What are they scared of - that he may be right?
So it didn't even come down to any scandal, any doctrine. Just their cult-like behaviour. Who needs to explain why 607 BCE is wrong, when all you need to do is see how unreasonable and fanatical they are?!