Norm
Great post
What do you think of Cynicus' comments in my post to Kent:
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=6744&site=3
hawk
Posts by hawkaw
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16Traitors and heroes.
by Norm inthe whitewashed history of the watchtower society in nazi germany.. the man who became leader of the german branch of the watchtower society after the war is without exception portrayed as a beacon of virtue and faith, standing fearless against the nazis:.
*** w89 5/1 12 jehovah has sustained me as a friend ***.
many of the loyal ones, among them erich frost and konrad franke, who suffered much for the lords sake and later became branch overseers in germany, returned alive from the fiery furnace of persecution.. .
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Kent & Info on WTS in the holocaust
by hawkaw inkent,.
have you ever written the united states holocaust memorial museum ( http://www.ushmm.org/topics and brought to their attention any of the unbelievable facts that you and others have uncovered at your web site?
such as eric frost saving his skin and selling out the others, the 1934 yearbook, only 635 prison deaths that include 203 executed but now has suddenly become 1,000s, how it was all the churches fault even though a few 1,000 poor priests (at least 5 times more than jw victims) were executed in the camps etc.
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hawkaw
Well bx,
This otta keep somebody up late at nights if this gets sent around.
I know a few certain addresses where this should be sent too.
ROTFLMAO
Kent,
Thanks for posting the Email to the museum's "PRESS ROOM" and the other changes you will make at your site. Since a conservative has hit the white house the "lamestreet press" has been trying to find any and all problems with govenment institutions and places like this, I think I have an idea. I will send something over to the museum with a copy to the Washington Post and 60 minutes up in New York. That will at least get the attention of the "spin masters" at the museum.
hawk
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23
I am new here
by I_am_an_idiot inhello everyone, i am new in the forum.
let me introduce myself: i_am_an_idiot.
why use that handle?
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hawkaw
I_am_an_idiot
ROTFLMAO !!!!!!!
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36
I Find it all interesting!
by glode inbefore i startm let mejust apologizein advance ifmy spacekey doesnt work properly!
!damn keyboard!
anyways, i have been lookingthru theposts here for several weeks, i findmany of theopinions well thought out.
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hawkaw
Hi glode just a couple more quick points and then I hope that you read www.ajwrb.org and please check all references. Do not take my word for it - read and check the references.
You said
"I believe that since the Israelites were the only ones under the Mosaic law, they clearly wouldn’t matter about the other nations.. did Jehovah give note of what was to happen to anyone outside the realm of Israel?
I remind you of the eternal covenant which addresses three main issues:
1. Noah and his descendants may eat animal flesh, but not "flesh with its soul-its blood."
2. Murder is forbidden - "Anyone shedding man's blood, ... will his own blood be shed..."
3. Noah and his descendants are to produce offspring in abundance - "be fruitful and become many..."The WTS has argued that this is an "eternal covenant" that is binding upon all of mankind. If this is true can we pick and choose which parts of it are applicable and ignore others? But how could the law give permission to a foreigner to violate God's etnernal covenant with all of mankind? Obviously is can't and thus, Deut 14:21 shows the law doesn't apply to foreigners unlike what the WTS says.
Go read Leviticus 17:15 - "As for any soul that eats a body [already] dead or something torn by a wild beast, whether a native or an alien resident, he must in that case wash his garments and bathe in water and be unclean until the evening; and he must be clean.
The context argues against the WTS's explanation. If you examine Lev. 17:13,14 you will note that hunting was being discussed. It is only reasonable that the following verse is in some way related. An Israelite hunter would logically come across a dead body while hunting from time to time and this verse provided some guidance as to what could be done. Additionally, a lost or stranded Israelite might locate such a carcass and choose to eat it because he was hungry. These explanations are reasonable and logical, unlike the WTS's tortured logic which is necessary to support their blood doctrine. Remember no one in the bible died from failing to take a bath & it makes perfectly clear a native could eat unbled meat. (Portions taken from http://www.ajwrb.org/bible/qfr83.shtml)
One final point you said
They have stated, that the matter of blood fragments is to be a conscience matter, something which basically is them saying “we don’t have any clear evidence this is wrong, so if you can justify it, its up to you” I don’t find anything wrong with this stance
The leadership and you seem to forget that these banned components are made using specialized techniques just like approved "fractions". Like just look at red blood. To make separate red blood cells, man-made machines, preservatives and anticoagulants are needed. Further machines and drug techniques are needed to separate white blood cells, platelets and plasma, and then break plasma down to albumin, globulins and the other natural parts found in blood ("Blood Components" Transfusion Medicine, University Pathology Consortium, LLC ( http://upcmd.com/transfusion_medicine/blood_products/rbc/product_description.html).
What does the witness leadership (not necessarily the medical community) deems a blood fraction as well as whole blood transfusions of blood as long as recirculating occurs. Approved blood fractions include albumin which makes up 2.2% of blood and hemoglobin which makes up 14.7% of blood. The leaders have banned blood components that include red blood cells, plasma, white blood cells (which makes up only 1% of blood) and platelets (which makes up only 0.17% of blood). Very rarely does a doctor transfuse whole blood but instead gives the separate blood product you need.
Seeing all these man-made techniques are required to make banned and approved blood products, just where in the bible does it say it is not okay to take a blood component like red blood cells but it is okay to take transfusions of fractions like hemoglobin (which makes up 97% of a red blood cell by dry weight).
Also you should consider the determination of a banned blood product - The leadership will tell you their bible based reasons why they do not accept whole blood or the 4 major blood components. So where in the bible do you see what constitutes a major blood component? No where. Thus, the witness will refer you to an encyclopedia or other medical research to show red blood cells, white blood cells, platelets and plasma are the major components of blood and thus, are banned.. But just look at page 237 of "Modern Blood Banking and Transfusion Practices - Fouth Edition", by Denise M. Harmening, PhD, Chair and Professor, Dept. of Medical Research at the Univ. of Maryland. On this page we find a discussion of major components of blood include red blood cells, white blood cells, platelets and plasma which are forbidden by the leadership. Interestingly, however, we also find Cryoprecipitated Antihemophilic Factor, Factor VIII concentrate, Athtithrombin III, Albumin, Plasma Protein Fraction, and immune Globulin are also listed and discussed as major blood components. Does it look like the leadership is manipulating the definition of banned blood component to fit its need instead of applying bible principles?
Like I said, when you get done with www.ajwrb.org, I hope you and your conscience and of course your girlfriend and her conscience can think hard and determine if this doctrine is and was worth all of those young children dying.
hawk
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36
I Find it all interesting!
by glode inbefore i startm let mejust apologizein advance ifmy spacekey doesnt work properly!
!damn keyboard!
anyways, i have been lookingthru theposts here for several weeks, i findmany of theopinions well thought out.
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hawkaw
glode,
I was in BC back in 1996. It is a beautiful place and very relaxed compare to southern Ontario.
I will come back and talk later but I want you to really think hard about you just said. If you actually have a University degree then start "slowly" reading (www.ajwrb.org - All of it and you don't need to be a meds student either!! There is good section on the bible verses and how they are twisted and everything else but if I were you I would sit down with the girlfriend and slowly go through it piece by piece. Then check out the references to confirm everything. Don't just take their word for it.
Keep in mind when reading AJWRB over that people, little children, are dying and have died all over the world because of this doctrine. In fact there is a 1994 Awake! magazine that proudly displays the death of 26 kids. We are talking little kids here not adults!!!! One would hope that if one innocent little child who doesn't know squat about some blood doctrine is taking one for the team instead of receiving a life saving platelet transfusion after chemotherapy, that the leaders better have a solid and consistent reason for doing it as well as shunning any parent who violates it. Also keep in mind the people who run this site at AJWRB are former and present elders and HLC people. Why do you think they are doing it? They don't want to bring the WTS down? But they know much more than your avg. yoggi bear. When you think about all this don't think about yourself. After you read AJWRB over, think about how your conscience feels of the death of a little child?
Oh, please read this post over carefully (especially Maximus and Marvin Shilmer.
( http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/forum/thread.asp?id=6288&site=3#76784
Again check out Maximus' references.
hawk
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Kent & Info on WTS in the holocaust
by hawkaw inkent,.
have you ever written the united states holocaust memorial museum ( http://www.ushmm.org/topics and brought to their attention any of the unbelievable facts that you and others have uncovered at your web site?
such as eric frost saving his skin and selling out the others, the 1934 yearbook, only 635 prison deaths that include 203 executed but now has suddenly become 1,000s, how it was all the churches fault even though a few 1,000 poor priests (at least 5 times more than jw victims) were executed in the camps etc.
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hawkaw
I think this is Interesting stuff. The guy was exasperated eH! When did he get a hold of you? If you remember his name or Email that would be great. I must admit this part of your site is an eye popper. It makes me want to learn German.
I wonder out loud if the museum received one of those mysterious grants. Hmm..... I wonder if there is a spot I can go to find out if the WTS made a grant to this museum. Hmm .....
I must say, I am not Jewish but I do have a lot of Jewish friends. In fact I am involved in a major Jewish/Christian wedding this weekend. My friend who is Jewish knows a lot about this evil cult and so do his parents. But I don't think they realize that this museum has all this stuff on the poor widdle WTS. I know a lot of members of the Canadian Jewish Congress will be in attendance at ths wedding so I wonder if someone will be interested in this.
I did note that if anyone wanted to send an Email to what the Museum calls its "PRESS ROOM" you can send an Email to [email protected]. Feel free to let them have it. This would be a great job for "Norm" with his wonderful use of the English language. I know when I get a second I will send something along to them and copy you if you don't mind.
hawk
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36
I Find it all interesting!
by glode inbefore i startm let mejust apologizein advance ifmy spacekey doesnt work properly!
!damn keyboard!
anyways, i have been lookingthru theposts here for several weeks, i findmany of theopinions well thought out.
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hawkaw
Glode you said
I will obey the “abstain from blood” command as it is in the bible
Really interesting. Maybe you, as a liberal can help me with something. The WTS keeps telling me this is a bible-based doctrine. Yet the bible doesn't explain the following:
- why "specialized" fractions are approved yet major components are banned. This seems odd seeing both are made by specialized machines and drugs. Where are they in the bible?
- why white cells are permitted in a perpherial stem cell autographing procedure but not as a transfusion even though there really is no difference.
- why albumin is allowed because it natually passes the placental barrier yet so do fetal red blood cells and white blood cells that are banned. Even though the June 1 1990 WT QFR denies this!!!
- why hemoglobin was re-stated as banned in 1998 but then allowed by June 15, 2000
- why it is a disassociation offence instead of a disfellowship offence as of April, 2000
- why the bible does not use the words "sustain" and "taking in" like the WTS uses but actually uses the word "eating".
- why the Oct. 15, 2000 WT QFR purposely misquotes Prof. Gorman remarks on Lev.
- why the bible talks about "not eating" blood for all mankind but Deut 14:21 says its okay to sell the dead animal full of blood to a foreigner. Obviously, God wouldn't all others to break his own law.
- why the penality in Lev. 17:15 deals only with cleaning oneself and no died in the bible because they failed to wash their clothesAlso please consider"
-why the WTS literature says it helped prevent AIDs with its blood ban but in the 1970s approved Factors VIII and IX for hemophilia and organ tranplants in the 1980s that allowed a lot of people a chance to catch AIDs and Hep. C
- why the WT uses the word "consistent stand" on the doctrine when their history shows all sorts of changes from banning then approving some blood partsPlease, you and your girlfriend should sit down and read over (www.ajwrb.org Then have a frank and real discussion about the blood doctrine and its effect on the children.
hawk
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Kent & Info on WTS in the holocaust
by hawkaw inkent,.
have you ever written the united states holocaust memorial museum ( http://www.ushmm.org/topics and brought to their attention any of the unbelievable facts that you and others have uncovered at your web site?
such as eric frost saving his skin and selling out the others, the 1934 yearbook, only 635 prison deaths that include 203 executed but now has suddenly become 1,000s, how it was all the churches fault even though a few 1,000 poor priests (at least 5 times more than jw victims) were executed in the camps etc.
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hawkaw
Kent,
Have you ever written the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum ( http://www.ushmm.org/topics and brought to their attention any of the unbelievable facts that you and others have uncovered at your web site? Such as Eric Frost saving his skin and selling out the others, the 1934 yearbook, only 635 prison deaths that include 203 executed but now has suddenly become 1,000s, how it was all the churches fault even though a few 1,000 poor priests (at least 5 times more than JW victims) were executed in the camps etc.
hawk
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thousands and thousands killed by nazis
by buffalosrfree inoh one more thing, i remembered wife saying, said speaker at yesterdays meeting mentioned that "thousands and thousands, of jdubs were killed ny the nazis.
can you believe it, wish he had of checked with the watchtower observer and really seen just how many thousands of thousands equated to.
i guess you don't have to tell the truth there you just have to keep repeating liesk, because if you tell a lie long enough it eventually will sound like the truth.
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hawkaw
Rational,
Keep in mind when I speak I am not nor ever have been a JW. I have a lot of friends that are in the BOrg. I am here to try and help where I can and learn as much as I can to inform people in the city where I live in Canada. So if I sound a little angry with the whole WW II mess I hope you understand.
I don't mind the leadership "NOT FORGETTING" the big "H". But I guess where I go in all of this, is that the leaders of the WTS should be very careful how they play it the table. Remember, the Watch Tower was trying to get in bed with Hitler and even attacked the Jews back in 1934. That gets very little "air" play. Then the leader(s) at the time allowed the witnesses to be arrested and some were killed. Yet witnesses could have left at any time or Rutherford in the 1930s could have said something to get them out of it - it wasn't a big deal unless Rutherford as a leader of a religious group wanted to show the flock in other parts of the world how Satin was persecuting the witnesses (ie. just like Malawi). And to show persecution does not justify the death of 1 never mind 838 witnesses in Germany just like all those deaths in Malawi. So just who was persectuing who here? Rutherford or did Rutherford prevoke Hitler? I will let you think about that after what you have read in Ray's book (C of C - chapter 6 on Malawi).
And then after you read Ray's book and if you start feeling sorry for the poor WTS again instead of the witnesses who needlessly lost their lives in this mess, just remember the guy who built that wonderful mansion in San Deigo (for those dudes who didn't show up in 1925) and then decided he would live in it, was the same guy in the late 30s who told the witnesses to not support Hitler in Germany. With that in mind I already know who should be responsible for all of the witness death in Germany in order to show the rest of the flock how they were being persecuted. That really ticks me off.
Lets face it, a lot of protestants and catholics and a bunch more other religious groups were also persecuted and killed too. You just could not single yourself out in this war like the WTS has done unless you were a Jew in the "final solution" (who I bet, wished or dreamed they had the option of the JWs in renouncing their faith to escape the death camps) or a Russian on the Eastern Front.
It is important to remember the tradegies of war so we don't repeat the same mistakes.
What is important to realize is that all sorts of groups were nailed by the Nazis. And it took a combined effort to eliminate them (and unfortuately the German people paid a heavy price for those Nazis when the Russian went into Berlin).
If it wasn't for the Americans, British, Canadians, Russians and many more millions who I have forgotton etc. there would be no Watch Tower and I guess, as a non-JW, that is what I take offence most too when I read these stories of misrepresenting the numbers at DCs.
Hitler did teach us something. Dictatorships like the the nazis and the WTS hurt and kill people, lots of people.
hawkaw
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thousands and thousands killed by nazis
by buffalosrfree inoh one more thing, i remembered wife saying, said speaker at yesterdays meeting mentioned that "thousands and thousands, of jdubs were killed ny the nazis.
can you believe it, wish he had of checked with the watchtower observer and really seen just how many thousands of thousands equated to.
i guess you don't have to tell the truth there you just have to keep repeating liesk, because if you tell a lie long enough it eventually will sound like the truth.
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hawkaw
SSM,
No problem.
On thing that always strikes me as kinda odd is how the witnesses get a plate at the table in all of this. Consider the "final solution" was aimed at the jews. Over 2/3rds were wiped out. 3 million (that's 3,000,000) were killed in the gas chambers compared to 203 witnesses that were actually executed by Nazis. Consider all poles and slavics (we are talking millions here folks) were considered inferior to the Germans. The catholic priests in Poland were locked up and sent to the same camps as the JWs. There were over 3 million Russian prisoners. ( http://www.ushmm.org/topics) And a lot of these folks died by the 1,000s if not 1,000,000s compared to 635.
And yet here I am talking about execution of 203 people that could have walked away any time. Oddly those witnesses of yesteryear believed in apostate teachings. It seems today's leadership has really conned a lot of people into beliving it was worse than it it really was. Never mind the fact Rutherford actually supported Hitler in the beginning. And in reality those 203 that executed died for the same usless reasons as the people in Malawi Africa died for.
hawk (WAR - We Are Right - WAR)