My Apologies Maximus,
I expanded this thread beyond the bibliographic reference range that you intended. I should have read your post with greater care. Sorry if I muddied the waters.
HS
hillary_step
JoinedPosts by hillary_step
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16
Confession, Clergy and Church: Source Material
by Maximus ini never cease to be amazed at the quality of thoughtful mail many of us get.
one question that keeps coming up is in regards to sourcing in-depth reference material.
i regularly cite the nourishment for the spirit thread.
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16
Confession, Clergy and Church: Source Material
by Maximus ini never cease to be amazed at the quality of thoughtful mail many of us get.
one question that keeps coming up is in regards to sourcing in-depth reference material.
i regularly cite the nourishment for the spirit thread.
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hillary_step
Yes Max,
Another area of source reference that may be of interest in the issue of clergy confidentiality and secret or private confession is :
‘Cases Of Conscience For English Speaking Countries’ by Rev. Thomas Slater, pp. 328 & pp337 Vol I. Though first published in 1911 (Benziger Bros. ) and out of print it sheds light on why the Law is loath to change its statutes regarding this privilege and the issue has not changed. Overturning such law effects not just religious bodies but also the medical world, as well as playing havoc with the Catholic vote! Some compelling arguments are noted, though it must be said that in some circumstances it is left to the conscience of individual members of the clergy to exercise this right and that where implied or future actions are concerned reporting the matter to the authorities is not a matter of choice. For example a person may confess to his priest that he is going home after his confession to murder his unfaithful wife. In these circumstances the priest is bound by the tenets of the Church to report this matter to those who might be able to prevent it. If he does not prevent it he is liable under law himself. This generally does not apply to ‘past’ sins under ‘confessional seal’. Catholic priests are instructed that there are four types of ‘professional secret’ 1) Natural secret 2) Promised secret 3) Contracts of secrecy 4) Confessional secrecy. My own experience leads me to conclude that the WTS claim to ‘clergy privilege’ falls into category 3) more than that of category 4) owing to the fact that surely one cannot claim a matter is a confessional secret if more than one person knows about it.
‘The Manual Of Moral Theology’ Vol I pp.470, by Pruess re-iterates circumstances where the clergy privilege of non-revelation might be exercised as an option.
I find even the issue of ‘past’ sins a difficult one to stomach, I quote an experience from the Awake magazines some years ago to illustrate :
g90 7/22 19-23 Three Hours That Turned My Life Around ***
Three Hours That Turned My Life Around
Even so, a sense of right and wrong exercised some restraints. For example, in my third year of high school, I had two buddies that I ran with, was on the basketball team with, did everything with—up until this one night when we came across a young woman. My two friends decided to rape her. She pleaded with them not to do this, but when they proceeded to do it, she became hysterical and screamed for them to kill her instead. In spite of her struggle, they raped her. Then they wanted me to join them in this outrage against her person. Sickened and repelled, I refused to share in their cowardly violation of her. They became very angry with me and ended up calling me vile names. Our friendship ended that night.
Years later I realized that what I had experienced was another example of what the Bible said would happen: "Because you do not continue running with them in this course to the same low sink of debauchery, they are puzzled and go on speaking abusively of you."—1 Peter 4:4.When I first read this experience, I was nauseated. This person stood by and watched his friends rape a women, it seems without trying to help her and then insinuated that he was morally more upright than they because he had not partaken! I spoke with a friend in the Branch about my concerns soon afterward as I thought this was sending out a mixed message as there was no mention of any legal action against any of the participants involved in the event. The response - you might have guessed it, was to quote the legality of clergy entitlement to ‘secrecy’ of past crimes. A secret that was admitted to millions of people - go figure. As long as it induces applause at an Assembly, then surely it must be encouraging!
HS
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6
Restraint -
by hillary_step inhello folks,.
there is much work taking place behind the scenes, away from this board, that relate to a number of issues that are presently of acute concern to the wts.
some of these concerns are obvious, and are presently being dissected ad nauseum on this board this morning.
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hillary_step
Mox & Rix ( sounds like a vaudeville act! ),
I am in good form and thank you both so much for your enquiry, I hope that you are both in pleasent spirit also. I can see from the healthy state of your fur Mox that you have been taking good care of yourself!
As ever - charmed by your whiskers -- HS
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6
Restraint -
by hillary_step inhello folks,.
there is much work taking place behind the scenes, away from this board, that relate to a number of issues that are presently of acute concern to the wts.
some of these concerns are obvious, and are presently being dissected ad nauseum on this board this morning.
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hillary_step
Hello Folks,
There is much work taking place behind the scenes, away from this board, that relate to a number of issues that are presently of acute concern to the WTS. Some of these concerns are obvious, and are presently being dissected ‘ad nauseum’ on this Board this morning. Some less obvious. What I can say is that there are people working within the WTS in a ‘dissident’ capacity, in very difficult circumstances to aid in the public exposure of these very concerns. Some have been helping in this capacity from ‘within’ for some years and could be at risk of losing their anonymity.
I would beg on behalf of these persons that some restraint be shown in the discussion of these subjects where sensitive information is publicized and people are tempted to divulge information that is best kept confidential for the time being.
Please be aware that these Boards are trawled by WTS Legal who are obviously very keen on knowing the future tactics of their enemies. They might be provided with exactly the information that they might need on this very venue. It is very tempting to load our emotional pain into our cannons and fire at every target that deserves a blast but perhaps the desired effect is more adequately achieved with a scalpel and a gentle cut at the right moment. We would not want to shoot ourselves in the foot.
I wish you all my very best - Hillary Step
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30
The Long Goodbye......
by hillary_step inafter a transatlantic discussion with my wife we have both reached the conclusion that we will not be posting to this board again.
though we see the board as serving a useful purpose for some, it does not at present suit the path that we have chosen to walk to extract ourselves from the wts.. this board is in an invaluable place for those of you who have recently left the wts and need a place to stretch your wings and share you hurt and pain.
but once we learn to fly, it seems important that we should leave the nest as quickly as possible, lest we become caught in a vacuum between the wts and real life.
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hillary_step
After a transatlantic discussion with my wife we have both reached the conclusion that we will not be posting to this Board again. Though we see the Board as serving a useful purpose for some, it does not at present suit the path that we have chosen to walk to extract ourselves from the WTS.
This Board is in an invaluable place for those of you who have recently left the WTS and need a place to stretch your wings and share you hurt and pain. But once we learn to fly, it seems important that we should leave the nest as quickly as possible, lest we become caught in a vacuum between the WTS and real life. Virtual friendships are virtually friendships but not quite. At our age in life,time has to be used carefully and for us we are planning another route out. I hope that this new Board is used wisely and not developed into some online jungle where the emotionally weak or those with different viewpoints or the less literate are seen as a target and the strong strut around in metaphoric jack-boots looking for victims to savage with their literary sabers. I know that the following quotes are taken out of context and are on the extreme side but they have been posted recently by two separate persons.
......oink, oink, Lone Piggy. You must feel terribly threatened to be squealing so long and hard! LOL!!! No self-respecting woman would let you near enough to pollute her with your pigbreath
.......AFter all ya keep your cheap shallow pride dont ya?
Coming from a peson who bathes in flea and tick soap,your labels are meaningless,just as your 'insights' are.How do you think that the average JW who is in conflict and drifts to this sight looking for solace will react to such verbiage? Can we not see that perhaps we may drive them right back to the seeming comfort and security of the very arms of those who have enslaved them. Whether we hold to Christian belief or not, this is a heavy responsibility to bear. Is that really what we are trying to achieve?
Both my wife and I were not raised in the Truth and when I have shown impatience at the attitude that some of you display, it has been my wife who has wisely put me right, saying, ‘Step, these people feel that they have had their childhood and youth stolen from them, give them time’ and she, as normal, is quite right but I cannot see any value in ‘returning evil for evil’ even if a person expresses a viewpoint that may outrage us. I have tried to handle the criticisms and suspicious accusations leveled at my own posts in a spirit of friendship and peace but have once or twice been tempted out of this position and this has not dignified my life and I regret it. Tolerance seems to be an impossible country to live in for some and yet it is the WTS intolerance that bought most of us to this digital piece of earth. Why use similar tactics that have bought pain to you, to inflict pain on others?
To illustrate. A person posted a message stating that she had been driven to prostitution to feed her children and then the feeding frenzy began. Message after message, is she real, is she fake, she is fake, she is real, she may be real with fakish overtones, get a life, get a job, definitely a fake with a real computer, Lol, moll, troll, atoll and on and on. How many man hours better spent caring for others were spent on this issue. Where is it going? What matters that she may be a fraud. If you believe that, turn the page and live on. If not offer some help.
Beorea mentioned that the average JW in Europe does not have same the idolatrous attachment to the WTS that the average North American seems to and in my opinion he is quite right. From my own experiences I have been very unimpressed by the sanitized and slick meetings that I have attended in the US over the years. Here in Europe I know at least a dozen Elders that I have shared my doctrinal misgivings with over the years and who see flaws but like Raymond Franz during his period of struggle still feel that in time ‘God’ will put all things right. I personally do not believe this will ever happen or can happen without major legal problems for the WTS and they certainly cannot afford to change, caught as they are between the rock and the hard place. The WTS is rather more tolerated than respected in my neck of the woods and administrative consultation via publications is just a matter of form, often ignored. Perhaps this gives the average JW in Europe a different perspective, perhaps a little less reactive but whatever the case, we must learn that are all in this together and all at different stages. Remember the average JW who shuns you, abhors you for your ‘apostasy’, maligns you to make themselves feel safer, tears your soul apart in a Judicial Committee may well have been yourself a few weeks, months or years ago. Let us try to recall our own failures in this rgard, then we can understand better another persons situation.
I was described by one poster as ‘probably mostly good with a propensity to try and be a spiritual leader which is bad’ or words to that effect. I can assure you that I have no such ambitions, I am always the last to go first and even within the WTS I have led a very private life because I am a private person. This is however an interesting comment and brings me to another point as I have spent the past 35 years in studios attempting to keep control of unruly musicians and it is here that the leader was forcibly honed not in the WTS! More importantly it was here that I have seen the healing that can be achieved by time and fruitful friendships. Here, I have watched foul mouthed, egocentric, half-educated young men and women slowly over the years develop into decent hardworking and importantly, talented people and this has taught me that the passage of time has a natural sobering element attached to it for all of us, whatever walk of life that we choose. A close and good friend ( not a JW - another European eccentricity - friends outside WTS ) was heavily drug dependent when we first met in the early 70’s. I watched in grief as his life fell apart but was there for him whenever he needed my help. Gradually time unmasked his inner demons and he grappled with them and won and in my estimation developed into one of the most important lyricists of the C20th, his talent if anything, enhanced by the trail that he had left behind him. No Bible, no lectures, just time and true friends. Of course this does not work for everybody. I will possibly lose my anonymity in relating these experiences, at least to those that know me, but there is a risk attached to every breath we take. We must learn to work with the ‘hand’ that life has dealt us and try to make something special and better of our lives. Learn from the older ones who have stepped towards these peaks before yourself, why denigrate them even if you feel them to be mistaken?
That having been said, I have immensely enjoyed the challenging intellectual and theological views expressed by some posters. AF has stimulated thought and has generally done so in a non-offensive way, JanH, though looking quite young from his icon photograph seems to have a wisdom beyond his years and again minimizes insults. Lonewolf and Flowerpetal seem to be warmhearted people whom one can trust.
I hope that I can correspond privately with one or two of you and have made my ‘hotmail’ e mail address available for 24 hours. I appreciate that this might open my mail box to some ugly postings but for this I am prepared.
BEROEA - yes, I know Chamonix, Grenoble, Aix-Les-Baines ( or Aches And Pains as I used to call it on my descents ) well from my routes in the early 70’s. I passed through the Mt. Blanc tunnel on my way to Rome the second day it was opened, in the late 60’s I think. I was in a Plymouth Barracuda and as wild as a windstorm. I have never forgotten those wonderful days. We have spent many an hour under electric blue skies in the peaks marveling at the alpine flowers and the gift of spirit. I have always felt closer to God away from people and in the countryside. Keep in touch and God bless you and your family in your challenging situation.
I also wish all of you the best in your journey through life.
STEP from the US
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185
Long Intro From A Long Timer
by hillary_step ini am a new to posting on this board though i have been actively reading your posts the past while and i thank some of you for the interesting viewpoints that you have verbalized and that i have enjoyed thinking on.
i am still an active jw, in fact an elder of 20 years standing hence my need to limit information about my personal circumstances.
i have served in a number of countries in europe as a pioneer and elder over the past three decades.
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hillary_step
GOPHER
I canot believe that I am the airport in the business lounge replying to your note instead of my buisness mail! Is this obsessive behaviour or what! Seriously, thank you for your note.
With all due respect Gopher I did answer your question and with it the issue, to date at least. If you remember you used REV 7:4-5 ( Babylon the Great ) as evidence of the fact that Christ has a judgment that ecompasses communities as well as individuals. i.e. community responsiblity. I replied by showing the REV 7:4-5 cannot be used to underline that issue as its interpretation is uncertain and I certainly do not think that the WTS interpretation of it being the community of 'Christendom' can be accepted without question as you seem to have.
So really Gopher, the ball is in your court. What I need from you is a scripture that shows that Christian judgment is anything but INDIVIDUAL.
You see to imply by your repeated desire for an HONEST answer that I am not being honest, or giving honest answers. Please re-read all our postings over this issue I have not side-tracked your questions though I have questioned your application of scripture.
All of this is a moot point really Gopher, as Organisations are made up of individuals. Judge the individual you judge the Organisation. Every person within and without the WTS seems, according to scripture to face judgment at some point ( John 3:16,17 ) on the faith that they put in Christ.
Really must fly! Talk to you later.
STEP
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185
Long Intro From A Long Timer
by hillary_step ini am a new to posting on this board though i have been actively reading your posts the past while and i thank some of you for the interesting viewpoints that you have verbalized and that i have enjoyed thinking on.
i am still an active jw, in fact an elder of 20 years standing hence my need to limit information about my personal circumstances.
i have served in a number of countries in europe as a pioneer and elder over the past three decades.
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hillary_step
Sixofnine
You raise some interesting points that I would like to answer and that I feel have an answer. I am leaving for a 14 day business trip this shortly ( actually to the US ). I do promise that when I return I will correspond with you over this matter.
Be good - Step
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185
Long Intro From A Long Timer
by hillary_step ini am a new to posting on this board though i have been actively reading your posts the past while and i thank some of you for the interesting viewpoints that you have verbalized and that i have enjoyed thinking on.
i am still an active jw, in fact an elder of 20 years standing hence my need to limit information about my personal circumstances.
i have served in a number of countries in europe as a pioneer and elder over the past three decades.
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hillary_step
TINA
Last thing that I recall was that you had 'disfellowshipped' me. Have I been re-instated'?
STEP
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185
Long Intro From A Long Timer
by hillary_step ini am a new to posting on this board though i have been actively reading your posts the past while and i thank some of you for the interesting viewpoints that you have verbalized and that i have enjoyed thinking on.
i am still an active jw, in fact an elder of 20 years standing hence my need to limit information about my personal circumstances.
i have served in a number of countries in europe as a pioneer and elder over the past three decades.
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hillary_step
GOPHER
Your quote regarding Babylon the Great bring me to another interesting point. Why are many who are well aware of the flawed WTS interpretations of these types of scriptures still willing to use these applications. What proof do we have that Babylon The Great applies to the world religions? Why does it not apply to Rome? I am very much of the Preterist view of many scriptures that I once accepted as future.
STEP
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185
Long Intro From A Long Timer
by hillary_step ini am a new to posting on this board though i have been actively reading your posts the past while and i thank some of you for the interesting viewpoints that you have verbalized and that i have enjoyed thinking on.
i am still an active jw, in fact an elder of 20 years standing hence my need to limit information about my personal circumstances.
i have served in a number of countries in europe as a pioneer and elder over the past three decades.
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hillary_step
MOXY
Thank you for your support. The strange thing is that exactly the same posting reaction to my own occurred with a poster called Beroea on another board a whileago. A letter of introduction leading to a mention that he was an elder caught in limbo and the attacks began. Could it be that these people ‘liberated’ from the clutches of the WTS are still intimidated by labels? Do they respond in such a manner for a MS in this position? His post’s were actually among the most intelligent that I have read to date.
Look at Tina’s reaction to my post and note her reactions. She made a statement that was plainly flawed:
.....It sure is. The majority of other religions,businesses,political parties,etc. do not enforce medical policies that endanger and kill,as the wts does. They do not tear families apart with an emotional and psychological abusive shunning policy.
I countered thus:
.......If you feel that within my posting I am defending the WTS or the teachings that set it aside from Scriptual Truth, you have reacted rather than read. From Masada to Mons anybody who yields their conscience to others will either become a victim or make a victim. With all respect, your views of political parties and other religions seem to be based on a rather narrow Northern American viewpoint
Note this reaction:
........Actually,Im rather well traveled,and I stand by what I said in my posts. I always take the global view......the atrocity you saw in the middle east is comparable to the atrocities perpetrated by the wts: the Malawi political card disaster innocent children dying due to a specious and nonsensical medical policy. SO please dont take the high road with me. There is very little positive value in being a cult member. The costs emotionally,physically.psychologically,economically,academically,socially,spiritually out weigh any good-this is a case where it's not equally good and bad-the bad far outstrips any good.
I think saying everything in life has good and bad is rather ingenuous,,,,,,,,,case in point comfs comment,which I noticed you had no pat answer for.
I still view your take as excusogetics,Her argument actually justifies my own!
I then noted:
..........Tina - With respect your statement above is inaccurate Even in North America a health policy seems to be enforced that allows people to die on trolleys because they could not afford medical insurance. Take a close look at the modus operandi of governments of China, many African countries, Haiti, South America, some areas of India and Burma, parts of the Balkans and Russia etc.etc. Who was it that deliberately sent Aids contaminated blood to Africa? My own nation the UK. My original argument Tina is where you find organisation, ANY organisation, you find some sort of pain. I have seen nothing that disproves that
She then replied with:
........hs,
You totally missed what I was saying,,,I thought I was clear,I know about incidents in the world,I was/am in the medical field> Excuse me,but you are not handing me any new revelations here.. You condescend to me as if I were unaware of global issues. Im gonna leave it at this,because I dont interact w/ folks who so magnamously ''talk down to me'. enjoy the board,Please note the argument and reaction. She argued:
.........It sure is. The majority of other religions,businesses,political parties,etc. do not enforce medical policies that endanger and kill,as the wts does.
I am sorry she is quite mistaken in her knowledge, anybody who reads can quantify her mistake for her. But note her reaction. To attack me, call me ‘condescending’ and ‘disfellowship’ me. I.e. I will not talk to your type.
MOXY - I think that I have seen this all before somewhere! Many seem to feel that liberation from the WTS automatically leads to some sort of superior spiritual position, it does not. Spirituality is an individually gained state of heart that develops from a friendship with God and Christ. Any person who felt that they had spirituality while in the WTS may find that it was dependent on other people, organisations, latest new truths’ husband, wife etc. This was not spirituality it was people tapping into a collective knowledge a social ‘spirituality’ that means little. This can clearly been seen by some who post to this Board and who were once ‘convinced’ believers. Standing and praying over others, teaching them how to become ‘spiritual’ and when the leave the WTS cease to believe in the Bible and God. Posting to this board does not make one spiritual or liberated. Being a non JW is meaningless if we are not willing to learn from what happened to us. Anger is not spirituality, frustration will not bring the ‘peace of Christ’. Only understanding and forgiveness will. Lone-Wolf who gave to the WTS more years than some of you have been alive seems to have gone through the strange experience and grown from it. His posts are wise. Angry young men ( and women ) are ten-a-penny.
Step