hillary_step

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Posts by hillary_step

• 
  141

  JW Kids Leave the Organization: Facts

  by Maximus in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the october 1 watchtower 2001 features articles on training children "properly" and dealing with a "prodigal child.

  the latest inside u.s. figures reveal that 86% of jw children leave the fold, with some 29% who eventually come back for reasons of family ties, most never "reaching out.

  " that means over half leave permanently.

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  hillary_step

  Hello Maximus,

  Four years ago I was privy to a Branch level meeting in a smaller European Country where this issue was discussed and I can confirm that the figures you note are accurate as a world average within a few percentage points.

  I can also add that despite pressure being heaped on the CO's to reduce this figure, most CO's felt powerless to do anything about the situation, one uttering cynically to me after a dose or two of the 'yellow peril', 'what do they expect me to do about it, no-one listens to us anymore anyway'. An interesting aside is the average figure of young ones raised in the WTS who face the six-eyed circus ( Judicial Committee ) before the age of 21, which is, if my memory serves me well is 57%, this obviously does not include the non-reporters.

  Certainly the exodus leaving the WTS the past few years has been younger ones raised within the religion. My experience is that very few younger people leave for idealogical reasons, that is the territory of the medium-long termers, but they leave simply because they are bored senseless by the endless roundabout of sterile meetings, hosted by a group of tired pastel shaded men, who if the truth were known would rather be out sailing and screaming into the wind; or because they want to live before they die. Many leave never to return after the 'reproof' or DF proclamation at the meetings, some do try to live double lives Max, but my experience is that most do not even bother to hide their intent any longer. While I think that Marvins figure of 99% leading double lives is a little wild, I would certainly put the figure at around 70%.

  Please note the numbers of Judicial Committees that I was involved with during the following years :

  1995: 8; 1996: 7; 1997: 12; 1998: 16; 1999: 18; 2000: 20. This is in three congregations averaging 85 publishers.

  An increasing trend that seems to have been borne out by many congregations that I have discussed this situation with. About 78% of committees involved those raised in the Truth and under 21 years of age, 60% of these have left the WTS and have not returned.

  As for you mentioning that your report was saving the FDS work, don't you believe it Max, they are well aware of this disaster and as ever are frenetically trying to find as many scapegoats as possible who are not GB shaped to heap the blame upon! Smarting back-sides in Paris last week.

  My best to you -- HS
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  59

  British And American Intercourse.

  by Englishman in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  ok, america, this is it.

  you have got to start learning english english at some point or another, after all, us brits are having to learn american english to be able to understand all those films (movies) about how you saved our arses (butts) during the 1939 -1945 (1941 - 1945) war.. now we all know the obvious ones, such as you calling a car bonnet the hood, the boot is the trunk and a spanner being a wrench etc etc.

  plus the fact that you eat fries instead of chips and spread mayo instead of butter.

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  hillary_step

  American : 'Quayle' - A large grey man with very few distinguishing features, though possessing the strange ability of giving the appearance of being dead while camouflaging himself as a brass door knocker.

  England : 'Quail' - a small brown game bird best served after lengthy marination and eaten on the bone. A well known poison to British JW's who have been heard to exclaim on being served the dish, 'this bloody fing ain't bled'.

  HS
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  25

  Prof. Jason BeDuhn letter on the NWT/KIT (part 1)

  by bj in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  some days ago i asked you if someone wrote to prof j. buduhn who is quoted in the watchtower 1 february 1998, p. 32. here's what i received from him.

  as every translation does.

  jesus one can say "my god.

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  hillary_step

  Juliene,

  You said :

  Of course when you have the JWs all claiming it is the most perfect translation you are going to see some ruffled feathers.

  Of course, here you do have a point, as many JW's have not even read their own NWT let alone compared its standard to another translation, so they are probably in the least confident position to make a pronouncement about it!

  As Alcott put it 'To be ignorant of one's ignorance is the malady of ignorance'.

  Best regards - HS

  HS
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  25

  Prof. Jason BeDuhn letter on the NWT/KIT (part 1)

  by bj in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  some days ago i asked you if someone wrote to prof j. buduhn who is quoted in the watchtower 1 february 1998, p. 32. here's what i received from him.

  as every translation does.

  jesus one can say "my god.

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  hillary_step

  Julien,

  Perhaps the issue is not whether the NWT or KIT are 'fabulous' translations but whether the translation contain any more of a bias than any other translation. My studies over the years have convinced me that apart from one or two obvious areas of bias it is not the monstrous translation that some have accused it of being.

  You must remember that it is not that easy to find a scholarly reaction to the NWT or KIT for the reason than many Greek Scholars are also committed Christians and already have a firm set of theological standards by which they make a judgment and remember, that their beliefs have often been ignorantly and arrogantly attacked by the WTS in its publications. Professor J. BuDuhn is a 'pure' historian, not a theologian, he has no ax to grind in the issue and as he correctly intimated if you wrote a book, would you try to sell it using negative feedback or positive feedback?

  To illustrate, if you were to ask Dr. John C. Whitcomb, Professor Of Theology and a committed 'young earth creationist' to review a book suggesting the possibility of a local flood, it would be difficult, despite his academic status to give an unbiased opinion. Now add to this situation that the authors of the ‘Local Flood Thesis’ had previously arrogantly attacked Whitcomb, what would be the result? Scholars are just people, translators are just people too. It is not possible for an unbiased translation to be achieved while humans translate.

  So the question is, if the KIT was to be graded as a work at your local University by historians, how would be graded. Prof. BuDuhn seems to give it an A-, I would perhaps give it a B++. I think if DuDuhn had been a JW for very long and subsequently realized HOW the translation was used, which is the real issue, he may not have thought seriously about a re-grading the KIT, but may have re-graded his opinion of the WTS.

  Best to you all - HS
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  25

  Prof. Jason BeDuhn letter on the NWT/KIT (part 1)

  by bj in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  some days ago i asked you if someone wrote to prof j. buduhn who is quoted in the watchtower 1 february 1998, p. 32. here's what i received from him.

  as every translation does.

  jesus one can say "my god.

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  hillary_step

  Moxy,

  You said :

  I felt that i had researched and understood the merits of NWT Jo1:1c fairly well as a JW. i never thought it was the very BEST wording, but certainly allowable, and definitely superior to KJ. my expanded research since then into non-jw/ex-jw sources has turned up enough bias and emotionally loaded verbiage to make me a bit sick. and none of it significantly altered my opinion of the wording of that particular passage.

  The point you make is significant. The development of opposing arguments can very quickly lay down battle plans for personal agendas during which JW's, ex JW's and even scholars can quickly lose their objectivity.

  Maximus wisely remided us recently of of the words of Neitzche, - 'Those who fight monsters must not become monsters themselves'.

  Thank you again for your comment.

  Ginny,

  You said:

  When I find myself reacting strongly and emotionally to something done by the Society, I ask myself, "Would I react as strongly if this had been done by Catholics, Mormons, or Pentecostals?" This usually helps me gauge how much of reaction comes from old wounds and how much is from moral indignation.

  Your comment is to my way of thinking one of the wisest that I have read on the Board in recent weeks.

  Thankyou - HS
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  59

  British And American Intercourse.

  by Englishman in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  ok, america, this is it.

  you have got to start learning english english at some point or another, after all, us brits are having to learn american english to be able to understand all those films (movies) about how you saved our arses (butts) during the 1939 -1945 (1941 - 1945) war.. now we all know the obvious ones, such as you calling a car bonnet the hood, the boot is the trunk and a spanner being a wrench etc etc.

  plus the fact that you eat fries instead of chips and spread mayo instead of butter.

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  hillary_step

  Englishman,

  How about:

  American : Hi! I'm JJ.Jnr

  Englishman : Hi. I'm Not.

  HS
• 
  59

  British And American Intercourse.

  by Englishman in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  ok, america, this is it.

  you have got to start learning english english at some point or another, after all, us brits are having to learn american english to be able to understand all those films (movies) about how you saved our arses (butts) during the 1939 -1945 (1941 - 1945) war.. now we all know the obvious ones, such as you calling a car bonnet the hood, the boot is the trunk and a spanner being a wrench etc etc.

  plus the fact that you eat fries instead of chips and spread mayo instead of butter.

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  hillary_step

  LOL Jools,

  Yeah,

  American : Hi!

  Englishman : Not yet but I soon will be.

  HS
• 
  59

  British And American Intercourse.

  by Englishman in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  ok, america, this is it.

  you have got to start learning english english at some point or another, after all, us brits are having to learn american english to be able to understand all those films (movies) about how you saved our arses (butts) during the 1939 -1945 (1941 - 1945) war.. now we all know the obvious ones, such as you calling a car bonnet the hood, the boot is the trunk and a spanner being a wrench etc etc.

  plus the fact that you eat fries instead of chips and spread mayo instead of butter.

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  hillary_step

  Englishmen,

  American: Good morning, how are you?

  Englishman : Orwite mate?

  Who has got the problem?

  One Brit t'other -- HS
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  25

  Prof. Jason BeDuhn letter on the NWT/KIT (part 1)

  by bj in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  some days ago i asked you if someone wrote to prof j. buduhn who is quoted in the watchtower 1 february 1998, p. 32. here's what i received from him.

  as every translation does.

  jesus one can say "my god.

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  2. 
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  hillary_step

  Hello,

  Ginny, and Alan, you present IMHO a valuable lesson both in humility and common-sense in your post and enclosures. The KIT is a pretty decent work, and considering that it seems ( according to RF ) to have been the work of a team of amateurs headed by the ‘Mad Hatter’, I personally view it as surprisingly good, with an obvious bias in one or two places but generally a sound translation. It is at least the match of Wilson’s ‘Diaglott’ and Bagsters’ ‘The Englishmans Greek New Testament’. I admit to only having basic Biblical Greek, unlike one or two on the Board but apart from the obvious errors which RF refers to in his books, it does not it seems to me, take any more liberties in bias than the translations mentioned above. The WTS as you all know used the KJV and other translations until the early 50’s. Most of its damaging theological policies were already written in stone before a single NWT or KIT emerged from the binderies.

  Having scurrilously slandered religionists for many years it is hardly surprising that Greek Scholars and theological researchers react by attacking the WTS, and all it does, often losing their objectivity in doing so.

  Do you think that sometimes XJW’s do this also? In many ways being an XJW can be as dangerous to our thinking as being a JW. There is a strange relief in being able to live in a world of black and white, saints and sinner, friends and foes. The WTS has turned this thinking into an art form, crystallizing the mentality of its adherents to the point that they are prepared to die for other peoples lost causes.

  Until we can accept in our own mind that the WTS is capable of getting some things right, which it does, we will never see the true point at issue. It surely is its corporate policy and dangerous scriptural misinterpretation that are at the center of our issues. When these are attended to ( and time alone will bring these changes ) then we can move on with our lives. As I have previously stated pressure in the right way, at the right moment in the right places will hasten this change but there exists no will within the GB to change any of its policies without what they view as good cause. Within a decade or two, just by the natural process of theological evolution, the WTS will resemble just another neighborhood Church.

  As Milton penned ‘They also serve who only stand and wait’.

  Best wishes to you all -- HS
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  67

  Please help me with the forum

  by Simon in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  keeping a balance in what is allowed and what is not is very difficult and is more difficult if i have to take action against one person when i have let other things go by others.. it would help a lot if we could stop the personal attacks and some of the name calling & insults that are thrown about.

  i know personalities do and will clash but please disagree about the subjects being discussed and not get personal!.

  if you think someone is deliberately trying to cause arguments please do not respond to them as this is giving in to what they want.

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  hillary_step

  Alan,

  You noted:
  

  Why then, did he lie on the witness stand in the Judge's behalf? He said that it was because he had no place outside of Bethel to go.

  This scenario is so common now that it is a globally tragic issue. Few people who enter/entered Bethel ever expect/expected to be entrapped there for too long, as of course Armaggedon would soon come along to liberate them.

  WTS beliefs are a cobbled together collection of band-aid theology. Held together with a mixture of wishful thinking and emotional laziness and designed just to pull the bleeding patient through the next few years until the real doctor comes along to operate. It has not stood the test of time but is being dragged by the scruff of the neck into the mainstream of Christianity. The 'glimpses of light' showered upon the Satanic forces of Christendom one thousand years ago, are finally being seen by 'Gods Channel' and presented to the minions as their own 'glimpse', of their own 'light', a fraudulent misrepresenation. The years go by, each year 'Waiting on Godot', then the decades, and the long-stay inmates peer out bleakly from their little lives, still hoping, still waiting. I spoke recently with a Bethel longtimer in a European Branch who admitted to me 20 years ago that he wanted to leave but felt there was no-where for him to go. Single, plain-looking, of average intellect, but with a wonderful heart, he had no escape. He is now a very sad old man, trying to make sense of the chronicle of a his wasted life. I shed tears for him on my rainy drive home and frankly hoped that death would visit him sooner rather than later. There are many like him.

  HS