Posts by hillary

30

The Watchtower tells the truth...

by teejay in

jw
friends

as distasteful as that truth is, it is one that may not go down easily for some who have nauseous memories of the wts.

what does one do if an obvious truth is found in a hated source?

is the truth's power diminished somehow?

hillary_step

Danny,

You make some very valid points and I cannot disagree with the majority of them.

However, the experience of the way that this Board operates shows that the admirable principles that you have laid out simply do not work in practice, on this Board. The most verbose disagreements seem to center not so much on professional fact as on tone, not on professional fouls but on personality fouls. I believe these could be minimized if posters recognized that though entitled to their opinions, there are many on this Board who do know better. Maximus, you might recall was verbally abused by a person who probably has a fraction of his experience and knowledge ( certainly a fraction of his dignity ) and it led to a fracas due to the outrage felt by some that Max's past experiences and work were dismissed with a vulgarity.

For example, Larc has great experience in the realm of psychology as well as other disciplines. I lack his knowledge in this subject so modesty demands that I observe rather than participate, that is how I have learned so much from him. If Larc, who may lack knowledge of my own disciplines chooses to correct me publicly in my own area of expertise with imprecise or inaccurate information, it would be incumbent on me to challenge and correct his post. I would assume that as professionals we would do this without brutalizing the views of the other. Is this the way it works on this Board, very rarely. So my advise is that a person, especially if they have a sensitive nature, should be very sure of their information before they enter debates.

You note:

Why hold short time visitor's (which most of us are} to some professional standard, is this what this board is about? I think not. The theme or subject matter here 'Jehovah's Witnesses' is so much a product of individual experience, length of time associated with the cult, gender, perceptions of who you knew, whether you were raised in it, way to many variables to set the bar of exacting research and unqualified accuracy a basic requirement for posting a comment. Way to high.

Should I even want to, it would be hard to disagree with the spirit of this statement. I do believe though that others who have walked the XJW path before myself and have gone through the desperate and difficult process of sorting truth from falsehood many years ago deserve to have their hard work sensibly evaluated before somebody pitches in with a rebuttal, especially one based on an arrogant disregard of the facts. Facts are not subjective Danny, viewpoints on them may and it surely is these viewpoints that need to be carefully presented lest they damage or insult. My own summation of your post is yes Danny you are right, but will the spirit of your words work on this Board - no I do not believe that they will.

My best to you -- HS

30

The Watchtower tells the truth...

by teejay in

jw
friends

as distasteful as that truth is, it is one that may not go down easily for some who have nauseous memories of the wts.

what does one do if an obvious truth is found in a hated source?

is the truth's power diminished somehow?

hillary_step

Hello,

This is truly a good thread and I wish to thank all the participants in it so far. It is posts of this caliber that help a person to learn and grow and led me to abandon my real work for my fake computer - yet again! Thank you Alan, - will you give me a ride to the Bankruptcy Court?

I well remember my first year in University when, owing to the fact that I had already been published as a poet/lyricist I thought I owned the oceans, and that at my request, empires would fall. Yes, I had the world by its spiky little tail. Stand back Coleridge, eat marbles Sassoon, HS is in town and he knows he is good!

When my first dissertations were returned to me with more red ink decorating them than Nixon’s polygraph test, I was a broken man. I watched the fields and meadows racing past on my train journey home with murder and suicide swinging like Liberty Bell in my youthful little heart. Later, when the dust had settled, it struck me that what had finally toppled me from my egotistical throne was that I finally met people who truly new the worth of good writing. Professionals. I learned a lesson that has held me in good stead throughout my rather strange career. Do not wrestle with professionals, it hurts. Learn from them certainly, then better them definitely, but do not wrangle with them! As Alan has highlighted, sometimes it is much better, and certainly less of a humiliation, to read what other posters say and then research before posting a reply or retort. Perhaps this might then stop the many rushes to judgment, explosive verbal battles and rancor, that ensue after a less than satisfactory post.

As eBay would put it ’YOU are responsible for your words.’ Of course we all have the freedom to post or respond to a post whether we understand the subject or not, but the negative reaction to our post may distress us and also question our future credibility. Post an item that vies for position with the National Inquirer and you may lose your future audience. Ignorance is unforgiving territory on this Board and we may not like that reality but it seems to be the only way it works. As some of you know, I personally feel very uncomfortable with the language and treatment that some have received after posting to this Board, which imho verge on cruelty, but perhaps a little more thought and a little more research before hitting the ‘post reply’ button might help things run more smoothly.

Add to this emotional pot of gunpowder the fact that the average JW, though often completely ignorant of their subject, has been trained to believe that he is an expert in all fields after reading a three page semi-researched Awake article, and then you have the ingredients for problems. Some of us have a problem leaving behind the exclusivity label that the WTS stamps on our thinking. We quickly scan a web site on a given subject, just as we would an Awake magazine and then become experts! Maximizing our knowledge and minimizing our pride can be a great educator in this regard.

Think before you speak is a sensible adage when you can see the eyes of your audience, think even more so before you post, should be written in stone.

My best regards -- HS

- The man who threatens the world is always ridiculous; for the world can easily go on without him, and, in a short time, will cease to miss him. - Johnson

19

peacable = true religion

by Moxy in

jw
friends

please help me out a bit with this.. jws, as a religion, are taught to live peacably.

they do not go to war nor will they generally support it.. now, if i were to play the role of an apologist, i think i would just keep hamering on this point.

"catholic killing catholic and protestant killing protestant" was such a great phrase and ties in so nicely with johm 13:35. now, let me play devils advocate and hear some rebuttals.

hillary_step

Ballistic,

Yes, I well understand your frustration and I am sincerly sorry about your family situation. You are still young and once the dust settles you will see new horizons before you. I hope that life treats you a little more kindly in the future than it has in the past.

You note:

collectively show little understanding of THE SPIRIT OF THE LAW OF LOVE, and perpetrate INSTITUTIONAL HATRED for their "enemies".

I am in complete agreement with this statement. JW's are victims of a philosophy that emotionally blackmails people into loving one another. Rather like a father telling his son to love his sister because if he does not he will be punished for his lack of love. This is far removed from the simplicity of true Christian love.

My best to you Ballistic - HS

19

peacable = true religion

by Moxy in

jw
friends

please help me out a bit with this.. jws, as a religion, are taught to live peacably.

they do not go to war nor will they generally support it.. now, if i were to play the role of an apologist, i think i would just keep hamering on this point.

"catholic killing catholic and protestant killing protestant" was such a great phrase and ties in so nicely with johm 13:35. now, let me play devils advocate and hear some rebuttals.

hillary_step

Ballistic,

Thank you for your note and comments.

The notional argument stated by Mox is this:

JWs, as a religion, are taught to live peacably. they do not go to war nor will they generally support it.

and

"catholic killing catholic and protestant killing protestant"

As to the 1% figure stated, of course I have not done a survey, my intent was to show that physical violence is a minority problem within the JW's and not a 'majority' one. Do you actually feel that it is a 'majority' problem? I am open to persuation.

Best regards -- HS

19

peacable = true religion

by Moxy in

jw
friends

please help me out a bit with this.. jws, as a religion, are taught to live peacably.

they do not go to war nor will they generally support it.. now, if i were to play the role of an apologist, i think i would just keep hamering on this point.

"catholic killing catholic and protestant killing protestant" was such a great phrase and ties in so nicely with johm 13:35. now, let me play devils advocate and hear some rebuttals.

hillary_step

Ballistic,

You note:

can I just say I've seen squabbling, back stabbing and even outright violence in the truth, once even on field service.

While I do not disagree with your assertion, 'squabbling and back-stabbing' can hardly fit comfortably into the area of discussion that Moxy focused on, which dealt specifically with taking up of arms in warfare.

As to physical violence within the body of JW's, my own experience is that this is very rare ocurrence. Even if 60,000 cases of it were reported worldwide it would still only constitute 1% of the membership.

Best regards - HS

19

peacable = true religion

by Moxy in

jw
friends

please help me out a bit with this.. jws, as a religion, are taught to live peacably.

they do not go to war nor will they generally support it.. now, if i were to play the role of an apologist, i think i would just keep hamering on this point.

"catholic killing catholic and protestant killing protestant" was such a great phrase and ties in so nicely with johm 13:35. now, let me play devils advocate and hear some rebuttals.

hillary_step

Hello Moxy,

A sleepless night has driven me to your post!

Your question is very interesting and deserves much consideration.

The JW's have indeed developed a remarkable ethic in their worldwide reputation as a 'peaceful' body of people. As you know JW’s are not officially pacifists. Within Law they have fought many cases around the world with a great degree of success to maintain this stand and they have to be respected for this. I would certainly prefer to have been surrounded by JW’s during the Ruandan tribal crisis a few years ago than the average Hutu or Tutsi.

It really is not relevant or even fair to try to undermine this record by then stating, ‘Yes, but the ‘xxxxx’ religion do not go to war, or partake in civil disturbance either, so what is so special about the JW’s!’ This actually results in a self-defeating argument as it fully acknowledges that the JW’s do indeed have an admirable record in this regard.

The point is, that not all that the WTS stands for is wrong. Unless we can understand that at the point that the WTS falls under the shadow of Christian ethics it by default benefits from them, as do all religions, then we are not in a position to judge the WTS impartially. Though it may be convenient to live in a world of black and white, saints and sinners, life is not like that and neither is the WTS. The WTS has attached to it some death-dealing doctrines and policies and these need to be changed NOW not in Theo's ‘good time’. Once these are changed, the WT will just be classed as another harmless though eccentric religion and imho will at last have something of real value to offer; a support system that does not rely on conditions.

Barry of SDA fame, with whom I have corresponded, makes some interesting points. Note his earlier communication regarding the treatment of dissidents, disfellowshipping, communal activities etc. Search the face of the SDA very well, you are likely looking at tomorrow’s WTS.

Thank you Mox, for raising an interesting subject -- HS

13

Bye For Now!

by hillary_step in

jw
friends

goodbye folks,.

i have no parting sigh to give, so take my parting smile, - landon.

my little sabbatical is over and i plough back into the real world next week.

hillary_step

Goodbye Folks,

I have no parting sigh to give, so take my parting smile, - Landon

My little sabbatical is over and I plough back into the real world next week. It has been a pleasure sharing thoughts with you all and apart from catching a severe case of 'screen-sickness', I part a better man. My e mail account ' [email protected]' will be open, please feel free to contact me if you so desire.

My best regards to you all, and do remember to find time to smell the roses. - HS

"Jimmy Page said to me, 'If I'd made the records you'd made and only had the amount of success that you've had, I don't know what I'd do', and I replied, 'Well, I exist on ego these days'." - Roy Harper

86

More Bethelite Table Crumbs Please!

by MadApostate in

jw
friends

in a controversial post in a separate thread, janh makes an extremely good observation that a certain former gb member will likely carry many, many wts "top secrets" to his grave, for whatever reasons he does not wish to divulge such.. then, on this db, former bethelites constantly exchange posts where their word choice is "cloaked" so that many of us who were not insiders are left guessing at meaning, people, etc.

obviously, even individual members of this fraternity have unique experiences and insights.

if such info is not disseminated, it is lost if that person dies naturally or in an accident.. would you folks please post more elaborately so that the rest of us can benefit from your knowledge and experience.. the statement that motivated this post made a silent reference to the author of the happiness book.

hillary_step

Kent,

Dare I say it? Check your mail....

HS - Ducking for cover

86

More Bethelite Table Crumbs Please!

by MadApostate in

jw
friends

in a controversial post in a separate thread, janh makes an extremely good observation that a certain former gb member will likely carry many, many wts "top secrets" to his grave, for whatever reasons he does not wish to divulge such.. then, on this db, former bethelites constantly exchange posts where their word choice is "cloaked" so that many of us who were not insiders are left guessing at meaning, people, etc.

obviously, even individual members of this fraternity have unique experiences and insights.

if such info is not disseminated, it is lost if that person dies naturally or in an accident.. would you folks please post more elaborately so that the rest of us can benefit from your knowledge and experience.. the statement that motivated this post made a silent reference to the author of the happiness book.

hillary_step

MadApostate,

Mad by name and mad by nature its seems. Ease up the bluster MadA, we all get upset, how we handle the upset is what distinguishes the depth and quality of our character. Remember, you get more bees with honey than you do with vinegar.

Kind regards - HS

There is an insolence which none but those who themselves deserve contempt can bestow, and those only who deserve no contempt can bear - Feilding

PS - My response to which you just replied was to a post made by Sam Beli. It seems that in your rush to judgment, you missed this.

86

More Bethelite Table Crumbs Please!

by MadApostate in

jw
friends

in a controversial post in a separate thread, janh makes an extremely good observation that a certain former gb member will likely carry many, many wts "top secrets" to his grave, for whatever reasons he does not wish to divulge such.. then, on this db, former bethelites constantly exchange posts where their word choice is "cloaked" so that many of us who were not insiders are left guessing at meaning, people, etc.

obviously, even individual members of this fraternity have unique experiences and insights.

if such info is not disseminated, it is lost if that person dies naturally or in an accident.. would you folks please post more elaborately so that the rest of us can benefit from your knowledge and experience.. the statement that motivated this post made a silent reference to the author of the happiness book.

hillary_step

Hello Sam Beli,

We have not 'talked' before, so greetings.

You noted :

However, you do have a point about a ‘clique" that seems to exist among some. For example: ‘check your e-mail;" "I’ll call you;" "we’ll talk soon;" and similar expressions said on this board. These statements seem to be made to "show-off," to convey that the persons involved have "special" knowledge or relationship that they share with each other, but won’t share with the rest of us.

The fact is Sam that some of these people do have a 'special relationship' and do have inside knowledge that it would be irresponsible of them to divulge on a public forum. For example I have no doubt that the increasingly unfairly maligned Maximus, knew of the involvement of Ms. Anderson in the child-abuse issue many months ago. It would have been an act of unforgivable irresponsibility for Max to have mentioned such on this forum, before Ms. Anderson was ready to do this herself.

I have highlighted a couple of words in your post which are of great importance in evaluating this issue, and while I have no doubt that cliques do exist here, as in any walk of life, I feel that these words are being unfairly applied to many who are still trapped within the WTS and passing information in uncomfortable circumstances. This forum is a meeting place for them and if a camaraderie does develop between them it is only natural and understandable.

By the way, has anyone told you ( if your picture is the real thing ) that you bear a striking resemblance to Cary Grant. I for one, am jealous.

Best regards to you - HS

hillary_step

Posts by hillary_step