hillary_step

Joined

• started 189 topics
• posted 7,220 times   see topics posted on
• send a message

Posts by hillary_step

• 
  20

  Attending WT meetings/functions

  by Lee Elder in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i've been inactive for over 4 years now but i'm still attached though - loosely.. i will occassionally attend a meeting or portion of an assembly or convention.. i get a mixed reception at these gatherings.

  generally my experience has.

  been that the larger the group, the more inclined i am to run into some who.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  hillary_step

  Hello Duncan,

  It just sounds too complacent to say "Oh well - there's good and bad in everything, leave 'em alone." The Watchtower IS - weighed in the Great Scales of Life - a Bad Thing, and is to be resisted by whatever means we have at our disposal. Subject only to us being sensible about who we inflict our resisting on, I suppose.

  Thank you for your comments and I do appreciate that this is a complex and emotive issue. I also heartily agree that the WTS does deserve all the negativity and attacks that it gets for how it has blighted the lives of millions.

  The reality is though, that there is good and bad in every human arrangement that I can think of. What I am saying is not 'there is good and bad everywhere - so leave them alone', I am saying no system is perfect and there are many who need the WTS and its support system. Without it they may face even greater injury. The two people that I mentioned are imho such people. I certainly would not want to handle the responsibility of the fall-out of their exit, if I were responsible for it.

  My point is that individuals within are not really the problem, as they only react, in one degree or the other to conditioning impressed upon them. I am sure your own parents, whom I am certain are very decent people, are a case in point. I am focusing on the issue of the sensibility of action that you raised, contained in the phrase 'Subject only to us being sensible'. Your idea of 'sensible' may be sensible, furious XJW just Df'd may have quite a different idea. Defining that issue is not as black and white as some would like to think.

  It is the phrase 'whatever means we have at our disposal' that worries me. Victor_E was making the point the 'de-towering' JW's without foresight can actually toss some from a frying pan into a microwave.

  My own feeling is that we need to train our guns at the foundation stones of the problem, the GB and its few dozen loyal henchmen. The pressure that has been placed upon them to date has changed their policy. I can assure you that some of the ticking bombs that have been placed under them as we speak will have an effect.

  Of course I may be wrong, if I remember that did happen to me once..lol.

  Take care Duncan -- HS
• 
  20

  Attending WT meetings/functions

  by Lee Elder in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i've been inactive for over 4 years now but i'm still attached though - loosely.. i will occassionally attend a meeting or portion of an assembly or convention.. i get a mixed reception at these gatherings.

  generally my experience has.

  been that the larger the group, the more inclined i am to run into some who.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  hillary_step

  Anglise,

  I agree with you it might not be a kindness to undermine the cherished faith of a 70 year old. But that is exactly what the JW'S are hoping to do everytime they knock on a door or informal witness or place a magazine..

  You are preaching to the converted here! I understand this scenario perfectly and agree with what you say, but respectfully it is not the point at issue. Two wrongs do not a right, make.

  I gave two examples of persons who had greatly benefited from having the WTS in their lives. One would probably have been dead by now due to drugs and prostitution, the other will be dead shortly due to old age. You would have great difficulty convincing them that they are in any 'prison', to coin Bang's phrase, at all. The situational sketch that Victor_E painted was one of there being little point in 'de-towering' such individuals, without in good conscience providing such ones with the support system that they need to survive. If we are not able to do this, we should leave well alone.

  I have known many JW's commit suicide because they could not cope with their 'prison'. I have also known of some XJW's who have committed suicide because they could not cope with their freedom.

  Best regards -- HS
• 
  20

  Attending WT meetings/functions

  by Lee Elder in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i've been inactive for over 4 years now but i'm still attached though - loosely.. i will occassionally attend a meeting or portion of an assembly or convention.. i get a mixed reception at these gatherings.

  generally my experience has.

  been that the larger the group, the more inclined i am to run into some who.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  hillary_step

  Anewperson,

  Hillary, the person benefited from having personal interest shown in her. That could come from any good group.

  Yes, but the point was that it did not. All the 'good groups' failed this person, but the JW's were the ones who gave this person some sort of life. As you can see from my post, I think it is valuable to remember that these issues are not always as simple as some XJW's think.

  My note also demonstrates that I am well aware of both sides of this issue, especially the one that involves child abuse. Not every JW is a child molester, most repudiate this behavior and are unaware of the WTS damnable modus operandi for dealing with this issue. As not every JW is a child molester, not every Social Worker is either, but some have been.

  Good and bad live within every established group, be it a religious, political of any other social group. We may not like deviant human behavior but it is as old as the hills. The WTS, like the Catholic Church a few years ago not handling the situation well, due to its own isolationist attitude, and believing its own PR.

  Yes, people are eventually better off without the WTS, but you need to try to explain that to the 72 year old JW that I mentioned in my original post as well as those outraged by its excesses. Her situation is by far the more common within the WTS than child-abuse.

  As to the motive for 'helping others to exit the WTS', the one you mention, of love for fellow man commendable, but again I would suggest that like the issues, often human motives are far more complex.

  For example, would it be showing love or cruelty to dismantle the flawed belief system of an elderly JW? Victor_E, does make some valuable points.

  Best regards -- HS
• 
  146

  Friends we are too unbalanced.

  by sleepy in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  well sometimes we are.. look we have the knowledge and experience to help a lot of people.must of us have one time been jw's and understand how many think.so lets not put them off by being too negative.. when we were witnesses most of us were quite happy .

  we tried to be good people , to put into practise principles that many people think are good.

  we did this sometimes even when we didn't want to , because we thought god would hold us accountable and because we cared for people .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  hillary_step

  Well Sleepy....you certainly woke the Board up with this one....lol

  HS
• 
  20

  Attending WT meetings/functions

  by Lee Elder in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  i've been inactive for over 4 years now but i'm still attached though - loosely.. i will occassionally attend a meeting or portion of an assembly or convention.. i get a mixed reception at these gatherings.

  generally my experience has.

  been that the larger the group, the more inclined i am to run into some who.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  hillary_step

  Victor Wrote,

  My take on this is that unless a person is seeking and openly searching to end their JW misery it is an act of futility to detower a JW. We outsiders have nothing to offer JWs as a viable substitute for their logical and regimented life style. My perspective on this issue is from third position, to each his own live and let live. It is far better to just love and unconditionally tolerate the people while separating their dogma that has been programmed by mama.

  With small reservations I agree with this statement. I do not believe that only those who are 'openly searching to end their JW misery', should eventually be led to see the failings of the WTS.

  My own wife for example, was a very happy JW until I was able to gradually open her eyes to the doctrinal flaws of the WTS. She was not searching for a way out and often feels that she has been thrown from the ship into a life raft, pushed to sea and left with little direction in her life. All she knows at present after 45 years as an active and conditioned JW, is what she does not believe. She is having to attend to some very challenging emotions within herself at present, but she does not regret finding out the reality of what the WTS represents.

  That having been said, I do believe that many are better left where they are, firmly ensconced within the WTS, which I know may be an unpopular view among many on this board. I want to quote part of a post which I recently made on another board in answer to similar questions raised. I apologise in advance for the length of the post:

  Are all former Jehovah's Witnesses better off
  for leaving the religion?
  
  I suppose it depends on what you mean by being 'better off'. I was speaking with a single, seventy-two year old JW recently, who has no family to take care of her and is very frail. Her Congregation are very supportive and care for her needs. It would be cruel to even attempt to challenge here belief-system at this stage of the game, unless of course I was willing to fill the role of the JW's in her life. I suspect hundreds of thousands of JW's are caught in a similar situation as this person in one way or the other.

  My own feeling is that before one begins the process of leaving the JW's, they should make sure that they have planned for the repercussions of their exit and established a 'life' to slip into. This would require leading a 'double-life' for a while as a person plans their finances, friends, employment and belief system etc. for the day that they leave.

  Are some Jehovah's Witnesses better off being
  JWs? Conversely, might some former JWs have been
  better off remaining in the Watchtower religion?

  I hate to say admit this but yes, I think some are better off as JW's.

  Just one example that springs to mind is a young First Nations JW that I first met in the 70's. Alchoholic parents, sexually and physically abused for years, barely able to communicate, living on the streets, selling herself for dimes, unhealthily overweight, a complete no-hoper. A particularly loving JW couple took an interest in her and patiently cared for her.

  I next saw her twenty years later, now a beautiful women, married with two wonderful children of her own, confident and assured. It was hard to imagine that this was the same person. I suspect we can anticipate the answer if we were to ask her whether she is better off as a JW.

  The problem with this scenario however is that it has a verso and many of us can illustrate opposite viewpoints with as many experiences.

  The issue is complex and I feel that XJW's often wish to extract the JW from the clutches of the WTS for many reasons, not all of them healthy. Many have their own agenda and play out a scenario of personal angst and frustration on the lives of others. It is after all much more gratifying to think that we are exposing the horrors of the WTS motivated by nobility than out of a base sense of personal revenge!

  Best regards - HS
• 
  47

  Just Another Day on the Board...

  by Farkel in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  waiting: simon, i just reached 100,000 posts.

  logical: .

  logical: im ugly.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  hillary_step

  Priceless Farkel, thanks for the chuckle!

  HS
• 
  8

  Whence Baptism?

  by Room 215 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  have any of you researchedthe origins of the practice of baptism?

  as far as i can determine, there's no mention of it, much less as a requirement, in the torah or any of the old testament.. unless i'm missing something, it appears suddenly with john the baptist (oh, excuse me, wt lurkers, john the baptiser).. so then, if all of this is as it appears, then it's fair to conclude that the practice is of extra-biblical (as in ``pagan'' or ``heathen'') origins.

  if true, then we have a fascinating example of how john, then jesus, appropriated a pagan custom because of its suitability as a symbol; in this case, of dying to a former life course and awakening to another.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  hillary_step

  Room,

  An interesting question and I agree with you, too many Christians live in yesterdays world and they tend to look foolish trying to wear theological fashions from another era.

  Baptism has been recorded as a ritual among many religions from as far back as the early Eygyptian dynasties. It is by no means a ritual exclusive to either Jewish or Christian adherents and a religion can only be understood against a backdrop of its own environment.

  Christ used the religious tools of the day to build something new. For example, his parables that mainly used illustrations derived from farming and fishing, would be quite different in concept if he was preaching today.

  Trying to drag many C1st century issues into the C21st, as does the WTS, does not dignify the message of Christ which is so simple that it was summed up in two beautiful commandments that defy time and doctrine.

  Best regards -- HS
• 
  16

  American Accents

  by Duncan in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  dear all.

  watched parkinson last week (week before?

  ), anyway, the one that starred elton john (for those not in the uk, parkinson is a bbc saturday night chat show hosted by mr michael p.).

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  hillary_step

  A notable transition in the applied accent department is the ever eccentric Glen Howe who's accent has over the decades evolved from a suburban Canadian to a rather folksy US banty rooster. 'About', went gradually from 'aboot' to 'abaooowwwt', and 'get' to 'git'.

  I well remember his trip to the UK decades ago when in a habitual moment of frustration confided that, 'Trying to find a person with any guts in this group ( referring of course to the WTS ) is like looking for t*ts on a bull'. He filled the vaccuum of shocked silence that met him with a huge, jet-lagged yawn and moved on.

  As to Jazz, Thirdson, it was invented in the UK, but perfected by the Brits! Check out Stan Tracey and try and find a pianist Stateside to compare.

  Ladies and Gentlemen, round two........

  HS
• 
  16

  American Accents

  by Duncan in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  dear all.

  watched parkinson last week (week before?

  ), anyway, the one that starred elton john (for those not in the uk, parkinson is a bbc saturday night chat show hosted by mr michael p.).

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  hillary_step

  Duncan Old Friend!,

  If you want to try a band who never gave in to the American Accent since their inception in the late 60's, try 'Caravan'. Wonderful lyrics to!

  We all know that Elton John, is actually the resurrected Ena Sharples, and does wonderfully well in a hair-net.

  As for the Laskey, well that serves you right for having anything to do with Norwich.

  Best regards - HS
• 
  24

  Letter to Garrett

  by LoneWolf in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  36929 row river road.

  cottage grove, oregon 97424. .

  ernie garrett, elder.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  hillary_step

  Tom,

  A well documented, valuable letter that is so reasonably written that even the most zealous JW would be moved to see the sincerity motivating it.

  Well done. I hope that it will stand as the basis for many such letters that might find their way onto the woodgrain of 'Service', ones that try to appeal to reason rather than purely vent frustration.

  Best regards -- HS