An online response to the "Skeptic's Annotated Bible": http://www.tektonics.org/sab/sab.html
There is also a CD response by another group to the SAB: http://skepticsannotatedbible.org/
hooberus
JoinedPosts by hooberus
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Bible contradictions?
by skyman ina man i work with in my business is very religious he does not believe the bible contradicts itself.
help me find a few please.
i am sure this has been a post in the past but i'm new.
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Did a man called Jesus Christ walk the earth?
by stillajwexelder indid a man called jesus christ (english) walk this earth.
if so was he an essene?
yeheshua ben josph (hebrew) iesous christos (greek) or iesus nazerenus (latin)?.
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hooberus
Jesus Christ walked this earth and was crucified under Pontius Pilate in the years 32-33AD. See my below thread for some additional historical references (and also a discussion/refutation of so-called pre-christian pagan "crucified god men") :
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What do creationsts have to offer?
by Pole inthere were a few interesting threads recently on evolution/creationism.
some posters seem to have argued it would be fair to have creationism taught at schools.
(see abadon's thread).
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hooberus
If so would you care to explain the biotic message carried by malicious viruses in one of your threads, instead of discussing even more "evidence against evolution"? (Sorry to repeat this again - but I'd interested to know how the adherents of intelligent design account for such cases.)
First of all it should be noted that while all biblical creationists (such as myself) believe in intelligent design, not all intelligent design advocates are biblical creationists. The following (from a biblical creationist prespective) may be helpful on the virus issue:
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Evidence against Evolution part 1 (disparity before diversity)
by hooberus inaccording to the evolutionary teaching (of the descent of all life via universal common ancestry) diversity in the fossil record should precede disparity.
("disparity refers to the extent of morphological divergence among members of a group, while diversity refers to the number of taxa within a group.
" jim gibson geoscience research institute http://www.grisda.org/origins/23068.htm).
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hooberus
Below is my ammended post (the previous one would not edit anymore).
Hey hoob,
Nice thread. Here's the way I understand the issue you describe and its cause.
The issue:
The Cambrian era gives us fossils representing many phyla, but with relatively few species per phyla. Gradualism predicts a greater diversity of species within a phyla. Therefore, something is amiss.I believe that you have misunderstood the issue. The issue primarily the pattern of disparity (in phyla) before the occurrence of much diversity (of species). The pattern does not start out with several species composed of a few similar body plans (ie: classifiable as one or two phyla) that then (as would probably be expected by evolution) would through a process of much species diversity eventually culminate in the formation new phyla, but instead the pattern begins with multiple disparate phya followed by diversity within each phyla.
To use an anology: The pattern does not start with a single "tree" (phyla) that through diversity eventually results in the formation of new phyla (figure 1 above in first post), but instead the fossil pattern starts with a forrest of multiple highly disparate (phyla level !) trees (figure 2 above), before diversity occurrs. -
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What do creationsts have to offer?
by Pole inthere were a few interesting threads recently on evolution/creationism.
some posters seem to have argued it would be fair to have creationism taught at schools.
(see abadon's thread).
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hooberus
Let me repeat that I'm not sure what's left when exclude evolution bashing from creationist accounts.
Speaking as a straightforward Biblical creationist I would say that what's "left" is a model of earth's history that creationists believe reflects the truth of how the world and its life came about. This model explains homologies (old definition), homoplasies, sharred biological universals, design in living things, vast global strata sediments, many fossil patterns, observations of creatures reproducing within basic kinds, etc.
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Creationism - is purely a myth that is untestable - maybe not!
by Qcmbr ini've been doing my homework having been stung by the vehemence of the evolutionary believers - i've got some interesting things that maybe science in the classroom could approach.
some premises - .
evolution is only a theory - its not a fact any more than newtonian physics was a fact.
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hooberus
There are fossils showing that various forms of life arose in a sequence over a vast period of time. This is evolution as a fact, so termed because rather than just being 'the same but different' with no 'pattern' or 'direction' of development, the sequence shows development from 'simple' forms to 'complex' forms.
It is also a fact that objects fall at 9.8 m/s/s at sea level on Earth. Newtonian physics explains how objects fall like this.
Evolutionary theory seeks to explain how the fact of how life forms developed from 'simple' to 'complex'.
However, I'd like it if you'd actually respond to my post, for example, on point 1, are you now clear on evolution as a fact (fossil record) and evolution as a theory (Darwinism) being analogous to G at sea level (a fact) and Newton's Law Fg= G m1m2/r squared (a theory)?
Though I don't intend on getting into a protracted discussion here, I would like state that I have a problem with this analogy.
That "objects fall at 9.8 m/s/s at sea level on Earth" is something that is subject to direct observation, and repeatable experimentation - however the formation of the fossil record took place in the unobserved, unrepeatable past. Thus, any claim as to how it came about (ie: "macroevolution", "progressive creation", etc.) was also not subject to direct observation. Therefore they are not "analogous".
In fact, the same fossil record is interpreted differently by different persons.
- Evolutionists believe that it reflects a sequence of geological ages that they believe shows "that various forms of life arose [by evolution] in a sequence over a vast period of time", etc.
- Progressive creationists accept generally a similar sequence (however without evolution as its cause).
- Young Earth creationists believe that much of the fossil record was laid out in a global flood, and immediate post flood catastrophies. Some accept a geological column type "sequence" (albeit compressed to with a much shorter flood period of time), Others (given the fact that most geologic systems are not ussually found in a single locality and other problems) question the necessity of even accepting this. Even among those who accept a geological column type sequence the same claimed fossil patterns are interpreted as the result of different causes (see for example the charts at the end of the following arcticle http://www.grisda.org/origins/23068.htm )
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Evidence against Evolution part 1 (disparity before diversity)
by hooberus inaccording to the evolutionary teaching (of the descent of all life via universal common ancestry) diversity in the fossil record should precede disparity.
("disparity refers to the extent of morphological divergence among members of a group, while diversity refers to the number of taxa within a group.
" jim gibson geoscience research institute http://www.grisda.org/origins/23068.htm).
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hooberus
Hey hoob,
Nice thread. Here's the way I understand the issue you describe and its cause.
The issue:
The Cambrian era gives us fossils representing many phyla, but with relatively few species per phyla. Gradualism predicts a greater diversity of species within a phyla. Therefore, something is amiss.I believe that you have misunderstood the issue. The issue is not primarily the number of species per phyla per se, but rather the pattern of disparity (in phyla) before the occurrence of much diversity (of species). The pattern does not start out with several species composed of similar body plans (ie: classifiable as one or two phyla) that then through a process of much species diversity eventually culminates in the formation new phyla, but instead the pattern begins with multiple disparate phya (50 !) followed by diversity within each phyla.
UNDER CONSTRUCTION
UNDER CONSTRUCTION
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Evidence against Evolution part 1 (disparity before diversity)
by hooberus inaccording to the evolutionary teaching (of the descent of all life via universal common ancestry) diversity in the fossil record should precede disparity.
("disparity refers to the extent of morphological divergence among members of a group, while diversity refers to the number of taxa within a group.
" jim gibson geoscience research institute http://www.grisda.org/origins/23068.htm).
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hooberus
hooberus:
"Remarkably, the number of fossil species (diversity) in the Cambrian is low, but the number of phyla and classes (disparity) is high, compared to the numbers in other portions of the geologic column."
How can the number of species be lower than the number of phyla or classes? Even if each species is assigned a separate phylum, there can never be more phyla than there are species. As any taxonomic grouping above species is somewhat arbitrary anyway, this argument falls apart very quickly. I'd be curious to know exactly what you, hooberus, think a phylum is.
Gibson's point is not that the number of species is "lower than the number of phyla or classes" (see for example the underlined portions of his his next sentence following your quote): "Remarkably, the number of fossil species (diversity) in the Cambrian is low, but the number of phyla and classes (disparity) is high, compared to the numbers in other portions of the geologic column. In general, each phylum or class of Cambrian fossils contains only a few species, while these same groups may have larger numbers of species in strata above the Cambrian."
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What do creationsts have to offer?
by Pole inthere were a few interesting threads recently on evolution/creationism.
some posters seem to have argued it would be fair to have creationism taught at schools.
(see abadon's thread).
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hooberus
If we forget about evolution for a while, what is the coherent scientific message that creationists have to tell the world? Remember that if it's to be "scientific", then it has to be reasonably coherent, and meaningful.
If persons are really interested in the coherent scientific message that creationists have to tell the world then I recommend the following publications:
"The Biotic Message" by Walter ReMine (the book provides a theory of creation as well as a thorough examination of evolution).-technical http://www1.minn.net/~science/about.htm
"Creation Facts of Life" by Dr. Gary Parker -general available from http://www.answersingenesis.org
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Evidence against Evolution part 1 (disparity before diversity)
by hooberus inaccording to the evolutionary teaching (of the descent of all life via universal common ancestry) diversity in the fossil record should precede disparity.
("disparity refers to the extent of morphological divergence among members of a group, while diversity refers to the number of taxa within a group.
" jim gibson geoscience research institute http://www.grisda.org/origins/23068.htm).
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hooberus
According to the evolutionary teaching (of the descent of all life via universal common ancestry) diversity in the fossil record should precede disparity. ("Disparity refers to the extent of morphological divergence among members of a group, while diversity refers to the number of taxa within a group." Jim Gibson Geoscience Research Institute http://www.grisda.org/origins/23068.htm)
The evolutionary prediction can be illustrated as below:
http://id-www.ucsb.edu/veritas/JOURNEY/phyla.html
The fossil record however shows that disparity precedes diversity for the major groups:
http://id-www.ucsb.edu/veritas/JOURNEY/phyla.html
"Remarkably, the number of fossil species (diversity) in the Cambrian is low, but the number of phyla and classes (disparity) is high, compared to the numbers in other portions of the geologic column. In general, each phylum or class of Cambrian fossils contains only a few species, while these same groups may have larger numbers of species in strata above the Cambrian. The strata above the Cambrian contain larger numbers of species and families, but few additional phyla. Thus the Cambrian fossils are highly disparate, but the number of species (diversity) is relatively low. This pattern has been called "disparity before diversity" by Stephen Jay Gould." Jim Gibson http://www.grisda.org/origins/23068.htm
For more information: