Posts by hooberus

17

Are JWs loosing it?

by eyeslice in

personally, i am more of a lurker than a poster, which i guess is because i am still very much on the fringes of the organization.

although many here have become bitter due to their experiences in the truth, i am sure that many of us look back on some really great times we had.

there was a time when there was a great feeling of optimism, new families (not just the odd individual here and there) were studying and coming along.

"Now I know its not just me, as I hear the odd comment now and again, particularly from older ones, such as, I am not so sure that I wont die before this system ends and I used to really love going to the meetings but now I sometimes I feel it so hard to drag myself out. And, these comments are not from the spiritually weak, but from the so-called pillars in the congregation."

Do these older ones realize that according to Watchtower doctrine:

They are only a body with no immortal soul.
If they die their body will not be restored or resurrected but will remain dead forever.
Jehovah will create a new body which looks and acts like them but will have never lived before.
Therefore they will never see a paradise earth, but they will be out of existence forever.
They have no hope in the Watchtower Organization for eternal life.

39

How to help a JW using 607, 1914 stuff.

by apocalypse in

the following information was prepared for the benefit of those who are endeavoring to assist a close friend or relative who is a jehovahs witness.

it is intended to aid a person who wishes to, in a non-confrontational manner, approach the vital foundational issue with respect to the primary doctrine of jehovahs witnesses.

it can be done without the recipient of the information even becoming aware of your intentions.

hooberus

link, this is how I would respond to the "new light" argument.

"Yes, Mr. Witness I know that the FDS teaching was changed in February 1927 to the current one that the FDS is a "class." However this is not the issue that concerns me. The main thing that concerns me is that the Watchtower claims that there was a slave class in the year 1919 when there wasn't one. In oder for Watchtower history to be correct Jesus had to appoint a slave class in the year 1919. The historical facts show that one did not exist, hense the Watchtower has lied about their history."

link, here is another way to respond to the "new light" argument.

"Mr. Witness the Watchtower claims that the new light is progressive, right? . In fact the Watchtower first taught that the FDS was a "class", then the Watchtower claimed to have new understanding or new light that the FDS was an "individual not a class." So the idea that the FDS is "not a class" was the "new light". Then later the Watchtower returned to the "old light" and once again taught that the FDS was a "class."

Summary of Watchtower FDS teaching

1879 to 1896 "A class"
1896 to 1927 "An individual, not a class"
1927 to pres "A class"

Edited by - hooberus on 20 December 2002 14:46:21

39

How to help a JW using 607, 1914 stuff.

by apocalypse in

the following information was prepared for the benefit of those who are endeavoring to assist a close friend or relative who is a jehovahs witness.

it is intended to aid a person who wishes to, in a non-confrontational manner, approach the vital foundational issue with respect to the primary doctrine of jehovahs witnesses.

it can be done without the recipient of the information even becoming aware of your intentions.

hooberus

A simpler way to disprove the 1914, 1919 FDS doctrine is to simply show the 1919 Topical Index to the Watchtower Reprints. Under the "That" heading

"That Servant: An Individual, not a class"

Since the index summarizes the WT teachings up to July 1919 there was no FDS class for Jesus to appoint!

Edited by - hooberus on 19 December 2002 20:59:32

7

To Save a Witness Life

by metatron in

jw
friends

elsewhere on this forum, the subject of witness suicide came up.

some project.

images of jonestown and a dying organization ordering its membership to take their.

hooberus

JT said:

"i agree with you 110% we never know where the seeds will sprout, I look at myself as a test case- i was truly dyed in the wool and anyone who had left wt would have said JT will never come out he is a Company Man to the bone- yet I'm out due to having info presented to me that eventually i could not fight-"

JT what info was presented that you could not refute? and how was it presented?

1

Loyalty Witnessing Strategy

by hooberus in

the january 15, 1970 watchtower p. 37-40 contains arcticle titled: .

"the "first man" represents the believers who remain faithful to their church out of loyalty to the religion they were brought to believe in.

thier attitude is: right or wrong, it is my religion!

hooberus

The January 15, 1970 Watchtower p. 37-40 contains arcticle titled:

"Which Comes First- Your Church or God?"

"The "first man" represents the believers who remain faithful to their church out of loyalty to the religion they were brought to believe in. Thier attitude is: Right or wrong, it is my religion! Is that the way you feel? If so, you are certainly a loyal person. But to whom do you owe the greater loyalty-to your church, or to God? With so much disbelief rife throughout the earth, you are to be commended for maintaining your faith, but where should your faith be placed-in a religious organization, or in God?" p.37

"The "second man" mentioned in the Nouvel Observateur represents those Catholics and Protestants who stay with their church because they do not know where else to go. They havebeen taught that their church represents God, and they do not want to turn away from him. They disapprove of many church practices or doctrines, but they hope to reform their church from within. Typical of these are the 744 French Catholics who, in November 1968, sent a long open letter to the pope. In it they stated: "Today the Christian needs to live in a 'true' Church . . . Therefore all that is false, contrary to the Gospel and scandalous within the Church today wounds the Christian." Then followed a long list of grievances against the Catholic Church and it current teachings and practices. Yet, toward the end, these catholics expressed their unconditional adherence to their church by alluding to John 6:68 and stating: "Who could we go to? In her [the Roman Catholic Church] we find the One who has words of eternal life." p.39

I beileve that this Watchtower arcticle can with a few simple questions be used effectively to separate the witnesses "Loyalty to God" from "Loyalty to the Organization". The Issue of faith in a religious organization being separte from faith in God is addressed nicely. Also issues of "where else to go" and the misappication of John 6:68 from Christ to a "church" or "organization" can be very effectively brought up using this arcticle.

In an earlier post the follwing was given by a former witness as some of the reasons for staying in the Watchtower Organization.

"Obstacles/hinderances: Loyalty. Thinking that there was no where else to go. Fear of the unknown. Believing God and the Watchtower were inseperable. Believing we would lose Gods protective barrier and bring death on our family (Like Job) if we left."

I believe that the above article can be used effectively and non-offensively to deal with these common issues.

Edited by - hooberus on 19 December 2002 16:18:26

Edited by - hooberus on 19 December 2002 16:19:19

24

ARE YOU a FUNDIE? (quiz)

by Sirona in

ok. fundies.

i'm sick and tired of them.

i'm talking particularly about christian fundies.. what really grates on my nerves is that these people don't even realise they are fundies.

hooberus

My above post was meant to get people to humorously and seriously consider the other side of things. No malace is intended nor do I condone the use of blasphemy and name calling.

Edited by - hooberus on 17 December 2002 13:11:44

24

ARE YOU a FUNDIE? (quiz)

by Sirona in

ok. fundies.

i'm sick and tired of them.

i'm talking particularly about christian fundies.. what really grates on my nerves is that these people don't even realise they are fundies.

hooberus

OK. Liberals.

I'm sick and tired of them. I'm talking particularly about Anti-Christian liberals.

What really grates on my nerves is that these people don't even realise they are liberals. Lets do the FUNDIE thing and "separate the wheat from the chaff" my brothers and sisters.

Please answer the following questions (the liberometermeter) :

(note, no ONE answer will make you a liberal, its the combination of answers that may reveal what you are possibly denying...see results chart below)

1. Do you think that truth is relative and that there is no undisputed "right" or "wrong"

2. Do you find yourself shouting curses at inappropriate times? (e.g. GOD DAMN IT! and JESUS CHRIST!)

3. If you answered "yes" to the above, has this happened during sex? (with someone elses marriage mate, of course! You are a proud fornicator!)

3. Do you think that those who do not accept your version of "Science" and "philosophy" can "go to hell"? (bonus: have you told them they're going to hell? extra bonus: whilst foaming at the mouth?)

4. Do you believe that you came from a fish and have a Darwin symbol on your vehicle? (bonus: do you wave emphatically at others who have Darwin symbols on their vehicles?)

5. Do you attend philosophy class more than once a week?

6. Do you say the word "Fundi" (or alternatively "Satan") more than once a day?

7. Do you find yourself clasping your hands over your ears and screaming hysterically when Christian music plays?

8. Do you use circular reasoning? (explanation: "Evolution is true because real Scientists say it to be true....Only scientists who believe in evolution are real scientists because the evolution is true ...."etc.)

9. Are you anti- Jesus Christ?

10. Do you have at least two friends who wear crosses and yet don't believe in the message of the cross?

RESULTS:

IF you answered YES

10+ times. You are a Liberal. This means you are one annoying A*shole. It is recommended you try THINKING. Oh, and you do not have all the answers you Pr*ck.

5+ times. BEWARE. You are seriously becoming as closed minded as the true Liberal. Practise the following mantra 3 times a day "I can respect those of other faiths, I can possibly be wrong". If that doesn't work, shut the F**k up because we don't wanna hear your crap.

1+ times. Wake up and smell the coffee, then leave that philosophy before its too late. If you do belong to a church, well....good. Keep it up!

Edited by - hooberus on 17 December 2002 13:4:6

12

Interesting discussion with some JWs

by Nathan in

i had some jws visit me today and meet for the first time.

the time has left me feeling sad and confused.

i learnt some interesting things about these two individuals.. firstly, the man launched straight into his 'good news'.

hooberus

When JWs use their "we don't do __________ or believe in the doctrine of ________ so we must be the true faith" argument

A good response is to discuss other groups and individuals which don't do or believe in x. And ask if they too are "no part of the world" ? Thids breaks down JW mind control.

Be as loving as possible. See the "Opening the Closed Mind" arcticle at

http://www.freeminds.org

Its under the "Watchtower Psychology" heading on the left side of the home page.

Edited by - hooberus on 14 December 2002 16:24:9

12

Interesting discussion with some JWs

by Nathan in

i had some jws visit me today and meet for the first time.

the time has left me feeling sad and confused.

i learnt some interesting things about these two individuals.. firstly, the man launched straight into his 'good news'.

hooberus

"As long as you are in the right organisation and you have the right fruit, which no other religious organisation has."

Many other organizations have the same fruit as the JW's

Use of Gods name (The Mormons come to your door and talk about Jehovah)
Proclaim Kingdom message (The Mormons also do this)
No part of this world . . no politics. .(World-Wide Church of God doesn't)
Love amonst themselves . . no wars . . (World-Wide Church of God )

"I brought up about the doctrinal changes that had occured in the century, and they dismissed these by saying "At least we are trying and the light is getting brighter." I highlighted that this does not account for contradictions and how what they are teaching today might be heresy tomorrow. That did not seem to matter. Once again they reinforced that doctrine was not so important but what really matters is they do not kill other Christians but love each other. So I learned that what one believes is not so important but as long as they love God and love each other (by never killing another even in war) - that's the main criteria. Interesting. There must be hope now for all religions as long as they are committed pasivists."

So the World-Wide Church of God, and the many other groups and individual Christians who do not participate in war must be the true faith also?

78

Calvinism

by Calvinist02 in

the basic 5 points of calvinism.

1. total depravity- all men are sinners.

we are totally corrupt and wicked.

hooberus

Swedish said:

"You can argue about atonement, but can't argue with the Sovereignty of God. If God wanted to, He could only save one of us and leave the rest to go to hell and there would be no unrighteousness with Him."

Swedish my main problem with calvinism is the unscriptural Limited atonement philosophy. I haven't said anything for or against the Sovereignty issues of calvinism.

"All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all" Isaiah 53:6

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." 1Timothy 2:5-6

"But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man." Hebrews 2:9

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction." 2 Peter 2:1

Edited by - hooberus on 14 December 2002 16:2:50