Posts by hooberus

17

Need Help with Info Sheet

by Nickey in

my somewhat "inactive" mother says she's getting the feeling that i'm losing my faith in the wts and has asked me to explain to her.

problem is, i locked up because it's been so recent and my mother can be quite intimidating.

she's a "see it to believe it" person and has suggested that i show her proof.

My somewhat "inactive" mother says she's getting the feeling that I'm losing my faith in the WTS and has asked me to explain to her. Problem is, I locked up because it's been so recent and my mother can be quite intimidating. She's a "see it to believe it" person and has suggested that I show her proof. I try to explain and speak, but I get pinned up and nervous because I'm newly learning myself.

I sat and thought about it a while and decided to just give her a "info sheet" maybe 2-3 pages long, that we can study together and ask questions. I'm convinced, but she's still thinking that WTS is "the truth" and that something must be wrong wit her for having feelings of doubt. So, she wanted me to show and teach her what I've learned and to give her an explanation for my disbelief in the organization. For now, she seems to have an open mind. And I feel that now is the time to act on that... an act out of love for my mother. Because I don't want to see her hurt and depressed anymore over what she's feeling about the society. She's at the KH right now out of fear. I've decided not to go, but I kno when she get's back, she's going to ask me why I did what I did.

I know where to look and research. But I was wondering if I could get some tips and info on how to present it and where to start. Maybe learns something new that I haven't found out yet. I wrote up a draft, but I want it to be an honest fact sheet and easy to understand. I've done a numbered list of things for her to read and look up for herself. But it's so.... well, I just need some help. lol

A basic info sheet with all WT refereces that she can look up for herself. It's important that the scriptures and comments quoted are from the WT publications and NWT bible.

Nickey this might help. It is a good place to start separating witness faith in the Org fromtheir faith in God.

The January 15, 1970 Watchtower p. 37-40 contains arcticle titled:

"Which Comes First- Your Church or God?"

"The "first man" represents the believers who remain faithful to their church out of loyalty to the religion they were brought to believe in. Thier attitude is: Right or wrong, it is my religion! Is that the way you feel? If so, you are certainly a loyal person. But to whom do you owe the greater loyalty-to your church, or to God? With so much disbelief rife throughout the earth, you are to be commended for maintaining your faith, but where should your faith be placed-in a religious organization, or in God?" p.37

"The "second man" mentioned in the Nouvel Observateur represents those Catholics and Protestants who stay with their church because they do not know where else to go. They have been taught that their church represents God, and they do not want to turn away from him. They disapprove of many church practices or doctrines, but they hope to reform their church from within. Typical of these are the 744 French Catholics who, in November 1968, sent a long open letter to the pope. In it they stated: "Today the Christian needs to live in a 'true' Church . . . Therefore all that is false, contrary to the Gospel and scandalous within the Church today wounds the Christian." Then followed a long list of grievances against the Catholic Church and it current teachings and practices. Yet, toward the end, these catholics expressed their unconditional adherence to their church by alluding to John 6:68 and stating: "Who could we go to? In her [the Roman Catholic Church] we find the One who has words of eternal life." p.39

I beileve that this Watchtower arcticle can with a few simple questions be used effectively to separate the witnesses "Loyalty to God" from "Loyalty to the Organization". The Issue of faith in a religious organization being separte from faith in God is addressed nicely. Also issues of "where else to go" and the misappication of John 6:68 from Christ to a "church" or "organization" can be very effectively brought up using this arcticle.

In an earlier post the follwing was given by a former witness as some of the reasons for staying in the Watchtower Organization.

"Obstacles/hinderances: Loyalty. Thinking that there was no where else to go. Fear of the unknown. Believing God and the Watchtower were inseperable. Believing we would lose Gods protective barrier and bring death on our family (Like Job) if we left."

I believe that the above article can be used effectively and non-offensively to deal with these common issues.

Edited by - hooberus on 30 December 2002 12:19:28

18

Born Again - what do they believe ?

by twinkletoes in

we have neighbours who have been very sincere "born again" christians, for about ten years.

i know that quite a number of you on this forum are also born again, but my question is, just what do you believe?, i understand that you don't have any particular denomination and appear to join any church service as you wish.

when i used to go out on "field service", i seemed to get different understandings of the scriptures, from born again christians, some seemed to be of the opinion that they would be taken up into heaven and armageddon would wipe the earth clean and then they would be put back on the earth, others seemed to think that they would go to heaven and stay there ?

hooberus

born again means a spiritul rebrith by the Spirit of God, it happens when through faith in Jesus christ your sins are forgiven, see Acts chapter 10 Peter and Cornillius. You don't have to speak in tongues though it happen in this Chapter of acts after the people who Peter preached to were saved. "saved is a sonomous term for "born-again"

9

How to get around "prophet" issue...?

by Happy in

i was wondering if anyone has a soloution to this little problem: as we all know, the wt claims to be the faithful and discreet slave, jehovah's spirit directed channel, blah blah blah, but i don't think they ever actually said the word prophet in relation to themselves.

if they have, i've yet to find the quote.

does anyone know how to get around this problem when a thoroughly brainwashed sheep uses the defense that "the wt never said they were a prophet so that argument is not valid"?

hooberus

The Watchtower has become quite skilled in getting around the false prophet issue. They even have a whole section on it in the book that all witnesses carry door to door. So unless you are skilled at defeating the "we don't claim to be a prophet" ; "well a 'prophet' in a sense"; "even the disciples made mistakes" arguments you may wish to try a diiferent strategy.

For example in 1993 the Watchtower made statements that Jehovahs-Witnesses have consistently shown that 1914 was the date for:

1.The time of the end

2. Jesus's second presence.

Then by showing that 1799 used to be the date for the beginning of the "time of the end" and that 1874 used to be when Christ's second presence began (taught for 50 years) you show that the modern Society leaders are being dis-honest about their history. If they bring up the "new-light" argument say "I know that you have changed you teachings, however what concerns me the most is why is the society now saying that they have tagught 1914 as the date of these two events consistently when they haven't? Are they being honest about their history?

Many other examples of Watchtower lying about what they predicted can be listed and there is no need to show that the Watchtower "claimed to be a prophet"

16

Question

by Mantis in

hi, i've been reading this site for quite a while now.

i've read the gentile times reconsidered book and found it very interesting.

i've tried to verify everything in that book and found it to be accurate.

hooberus

You may wish to discuss with her the many other groups such as the Mormons, Philadelphia Church of God etc. which also "preach the kingdom" Then ask if they are then the true religion also?

She may then bring up who else is "making Jehovah's name known" The Mormons as well as other groups also "tell people about Jehovah" In fact there is a whole group of religions known as the sacred name movement which use the name Jehovah, or Yahweh, or some other form of the tetragrammaton. Ask if this makes them the true religion also?

Edited by - hooberus on 30 December 2002 11:42:30

18

The Thread that "kills" the WTS

by eyeslice in

jw
friends

many opinions have been expressed on this board as to what is killing the society today.

i am positive that issues such as the un scandal, the pedophile issue, etc.

are having a negative effect and contributing to a general slackening off and sense of malaise amongst the rank and file.

hooberus

Now that the "length of time/ generation" teaching has been successfully disconnected from the 1914 date, why would the Watchtower even need to tamper with the 1914 date?

The teaching that there is a remnant of the 144k still alive can be extended almost indefinitely by saying that since some of the remnant fell away they have been replaced by either newbies or witnesses who once thought they only had an earthly hope and who now claim to be of the anointed. I have even read this in past WT arcticles. Likewise the FDS doctrine can hypothetically be continued for an indefinite period because these "faithful" replacements are running the Society.

18

Reinventing the WBTS

by link in

i realise that i could well get shot down in flames here but it is my personal belief that the wbts will make a concerted effort to reinvent itself in the not too distant future.. i also believe that at this very moment they are working on ways to change the major doctrines that have become a millstone for them, without causing major problems and a mass exodus of the r&f.

as i see it they have to leave the vast majority of their teachings intact whilst removing or changing the problem ones.. by receiving some sort of new light on 607 b.c.e.

they would be able to change, or completely do away with, the significance of 1914. although this would need to be the ultimate aim i think it would be difficult to achieve without altering many of their current interpretations of scriptural prophesy.

hooberus

Now that the "length of time/ generation" teaching has been successfully disconnected from the 1914 date, why would the Watchtower even need to tamper with the 1914 date?

The teaching that there is a remnant of the 144k still alive can be extended almost indefinitely by saying that since some of the remnant fell away they have been replaced by either newbies or witnesses who once thought they only had an earthly hope and who now claim to be of the anointed. I have even read this in past WT arcticles. Likewise the FDS doctrine can hypothetically be continued for an indefinite period because these "faithful" replacements are running the Society.

9

How to get around "prophet" issue...?

by Happy in

i was wondering if anyone has a soloution to this little problem: as we all know, the wt claims to be the faithful and discreet slave, jehovah's spirit directed channel, blah blah blah, but i don't think they ever actually said the word prophet in relation to themselves.

if they have, i've yet to find the quote.

does anyone know how to get around this problem when a thoroughly brainwashed sheep uses the defense that "the wt never said they were a prophet so that argument is not valid"?

hooberus

The book "The Nations Shall Know That I Am Jehovah" published in 1971 has probably the most direct statements that JW are commissioned to speak as a prophet in Jehovah's name.

53

Bible is God's word?

by Moxy in

id like to hear some *reasoned* explanations for why you believe the bible is gods word.

ive been so fascinated by the study of *real* biblical scholarship since i began educating myself, i now find it incredulous that i used to take the bible as divine, along with all jws and tons of christians, including a good number here.

so id like to entertain your very best lines of evidence that this is the real deal.. mox

hooberus

pete said:

"Henry Morris who has insisted the same as you, that only the Bible tells us where the different languages come from.(He also believes the earth is only 10,000 yrs old and the "appearance of great age"given the earth at creation was to test our faith.)"

Henry Morris has a Ph. D. in Hydrology. His son John Morris has a Ph. D. in geology from Oklahoma State University. John Morris has written a book called "The Young Earth." Anyone who wants a good introduction to creationists geology should get it (Anyone who actually wants to find the evidence for what creationist geologists believe, rather than simply dismissing their beliefs outof hand through the use of ad-hominem attacks.) Morris doesn't believe that God gave an appearance of great age "to test our faith." If you want what Morris actually believes about the so-called "appearance of age" issue go directly to the source.

5

An observation

by yard dog in

i'm in the process of reading "crisis of conscience" for the second time trying to gather up any missed points from the first reading and came across this observation.

of all the governing body members mentioned i don't think there was one that wasn't "white".

this strikes me as odd.

hooberus

The Watchtower even up to the 1950's contained statements about white racial superiority and anti-black, anti-hispanic, and anti-oriental, statements. Perhaps the Governing Body members were influenced by these and want to "keep the organization clean."

17

Are JWs loosing it?

by eyeslice in

personally, i am more of a lurker than a poster, which i guess is because i am still very much on the fringes of the organization.

although many here have become bitter due to their experiences in the truth, i am sure that many of us look back on some really great times we had.

there was a time when there was a great feeling of optimism, new families (not just the odd individual here and there) were studying and coming along.

hooberus

Hope is found in Jesus who will really resurrect the dead!