Posts by hooberus

peacefulpete, while I may be recent to the study of "pagan origins" proposed for Christianity, I am not recent to the study of the formation of Christianity from Judiasm. The messianic concepts found in Christianity are clearly found in the Hebrew Old Testament as well as other Jewish writings. The New Testament clearly gives its source (by quoting approx. 300 times) as being the Old Testament. The concepts of Christianity such as a suffering messiah are so Jewish, that any pagan source is unnecessary. Since the continuation from the Hebrew Old Testament through the Septuigint as well as other Jewish writings between the Testaments is an unbroken messianic hope, and since this is a fact, any other proposed sources which are not mentioned in the NT should rightly be viewed skeptically.

This does not mean however that I will not look at he data though. So far It seems problematic to compare for example the death of "dionysus" by being "torn apart by the Titans, boiled and eaten, with only his heart remaining", to the death and resurrection of Christ. Also while Hellenism clearly influenced the culture of the Jews, the Jewish religion remained much more resistant. This can be especially seen in the attempted forced worship of "dionysus" (see 2 Maccabees 6:7) thrust upon the Jews during Hellenistic times which led to the Maccabean revolt ! Pious Jews with separatist beliefs similar to the Pharasees were the ones who supported this revolt against the attempted worship of this false god. Therefore it is very problematic to claim that Paul (a Pharasee) would incorporate elements of the myth of "dionysus" into the Jewish messianic hope.

I would agree that in the centuries after the New testament was written that some pagan ideas were incorporated into Christianity such as the December 25 date (mid fourth century). Other items of paganism also seemed to have made it into Roman Catholicism. But the basics for New Testament Christianity come clearly from the Old Testament as well as the eyewitness testimony of the disciples themselves 2 Peter 1:16-17.

Edited by - hooberus on 11 February 2003 17:9:39

Here are some of the differences in the lives of Budda and Jesus. Also while most of the accounts of the sayings of Jesus were written down within a relatively few years of his saying them, the accounts of Budda were transmitted orally and were written down centuries after his death. And many of the sayings of Budda may have been written much later. So could these have been interpolations from other sources? If so then some of the parallels with Jesus may not be genuine.

ttp://www.irr.org/yamauchi.html

Edited by - hooberus on 10 February 2003 22:56:5

While it is true that crosses and crusifixion predated Christianity the claim has been made by some that before Christ there were other religious figures who were crucified. The Pagan Origins site under "dionysus" depicts a carving of a human-like figure on a cross with the name "bakkus" and then states "This image was made two hunded years before Christians first pictured Christ on the cross."

Does anyone know if this caving contains an actual date?

If it doesn't contain an actual date then how was it dated and is this date generally accepted?

Also the cliam that the carving was made two hundred years before Christains first pictured Christ on the cross (if true) would not necessarily mean that the carving itself pre-dated the Chistian message of Christ crucified. It may only show that it pre-dated Christian pictures or carvings of this event. (The early Christians many of whom were jewish might have been opposed to images.)

In the sites description of the legend of dionysus, he dionysis "was torn apart by the Titans, boiled, and eaten. Only leaving his heart." This seems to be a very different manner of death than crucifixion and would make this carved image seem to be later than the original legend. Since the original story of dionysis gives a manner of death very different from crucifixon it makes one ask: From where did the followers of dionysis get the idea of him being crucified? Perhaps this was an interpolation from Christianity and not the other way around.

I printed and read the section on "mithras" from the pagan site as well as read several encyclopedia arcticles. I also read much of the arcticle below:

Download Shawn Meyer's paper on Mithraism, prepared for Norman Geisler for his apologetics course (he received an A!).

It has been alleged that New Testament Christianity actually came from pagan sources such as dionysus, osiris, mithras, attis, adonis, etc. an internet site was provided earlier. I have read some on this site. I have also gone to various encyclopedias and have read some of the mythic accounts of the lives of these proposed sources for Christianity. Here are some preliminary thoughts of mine.

• The accounts of the lives of these gods are very mythical, whereas the accounts given in the new Testament are written in the historical.
• A reading of the complete lives of these mythical characters (and not just certain parts) shows them to be as a whole very different from Jesus.
• While the accounts of these myths are as a whole very different from the accounts of Jesus, it is claimed by some that there are parallels which indicate that certain aspects of the life of Christ were borrowed from these pagan sources.

Old testament observations:

There are pre-biblical accounts which have certain parts which have certain very close parallels to some Old Testament accounts in Genesis. For example the Sumerian and Babylonian "Adam" and "Flood/Gilgamesh" accounts. These are described in Halley's Bible Handbook. These close similaries can be interpreted as providing strong eveidence that both they and the biblical accounts come from a common account. If the creation and flood accounts actually happened the way the Bible says then we would expect to find accounts such as these in very ancient tablets. This does not mean however that the Biblical account actually came from these pagan sources. God through the hand of Moses could have in later times revealed an inspired historical account of these events in order to convey the history of these things to men.

Edited by - hooberus on 10 February 2003 22:4:6