Posts by Damocles

89

Do Atheists Celebrate Christmas?

by believingxjw in

jw
friends

do atheists celebrate christmas, the celebration of christ's birth?.

if so, why?.

Damocles

Hey why did that little alien thingy pop up on my post? I didn't put it there, although it is kind of cute.

89

Do Atheists Celebrate Christmas?

by believingxjw in

jw
friends

do atheists celebrate christmas, the celebration of christ's birth?.

if so, why?.

Damocles

My wife is an adamant atheist but celebrates christmas in a big big way. Xmas goo gaws everywhere around the house. She just doesn't associate jesus or god with any of it. Pretty strange to me.

I don't have much of an opinion about god one way or the other and I hate christmas. Have hated it since I was about 10 or so while still a catholic. My wife thinks I became and stayed a dub as long as I did because they don't do holidays. She might be right. I am tempted every year to 'see the light' around the middle of Nov and then 'return to the vomit' in January.

So I struggle with it. I don't like being any part of the holidays but my wife and all my family (still catholic) are big in the celebration and I hate being the wet blanket.

Damocles

26

Dealing with Being DF'd

by ~Jen~ in

i haven't posted much here but i feel like i need some support right now.

i did post my story, but basically i'm 27, married for 7 years and i was df'd in july.

i always knew i didn't want to be a jw but went along with everything because of fear.

Damocles

Jen,

Can't give much advice from the parents angle since my parents aren't dubs. I can give you some advice from your kid's perspective.

I stayed a dub >20 years longer than I would have in big part to not cause too much of a disruption to my four children (mom's still a dub). Looking back on it, it was the single biggest mistake of my life and I regret it mightily. My leaving would have resulted in divorce and probably the ex would have had primary custody. They would have had the dub influence from her undiluted. So that would be bad. But they would have had that many years of a parent who stood up against the dubs and was free to speak his mind. Instead I gave them mixed messages and no good has come from it. So being true to yourself and your beliefs is, I think, a good thing.

Does it get better? Well it absolutely did for me. The first couple of years were tough. The religion ladles on heaps of guilt and frankly I'm susceptible to that kind of thing. Plus, like you I dealt with divorce and children at the same time. Now (>5yrs on) no guilt and only relief.

The family thing though is tough but it gets tolerable. One of my children is an active dub and will have nothing to do with me. While I don't like it, as the years go by I get accustomed to it.

Surprising thing though - its shocking how many families have people who won't have anything to do with each other and it has nothing to do with religion. My wife refuses to have anything to do with her sister. My daughter in law hasn't talked to her mother in 10 years. A great uncle won't talk to his brother (not my family). In any case, I'm pretty surprised by it all.

Hope the experience helps.

Damocles

35

As A JW Did You Care About Old JW History, Old Light & Flip Flops?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i used to look at the old stuff as info that the witnesses were progressively understanding.

i didn't hold it against the witnesses if they changed understandings because after all the 'light was getting brighter and brighter".. as time went on, it did start effecting me.

there were too many things i'd let slide by when i was younger that i just couldn't ignore any longer.

Damocles

I was very interested in the early history. I had multiple copies of all 7 Studies in the Scriptures and read all but the last one - really tough slog that one. I read quite a few early Watchtowers (pre-1914) and I was particularly interested in the time from 1914 - 1919 and read quite a few WT from that time period. I read most of Rutherford's books but had trouble locating a few like all three Vindication (pre internet and Abebooks} and really had trouble with the second Revelation book (forget the name Light I think). I had it in spanish but that didn't help much. I had accumulated quite a library - which my ex has now, although I doubt she's read any of it. I was and am quite interested in the connection between Russell, Miller, and the Shakers. Its tenuous but real.

I didn't find the issues with the past much of a problem. For me, it was the broken promise. If I was a dub, I would be satisfied, content, leading a meaningful life. Tried it for >20 years and not true. As an ex-dub I am much more satisfied, content and find life much more meaningful. Its a simple thing. You propose a hypothesis then test it. If the test comes negative, then the hypothesis is false.

Now there is much more to it. Dubs argue that evil is a result of Satan and Man's fall. Doesn't hold water. Jesus' died for our sins - doesn't hold water. etc. etc. etc.

I think the straw, and I do mean straw, that broke the yoke for me was that series of articles on tacking. It was ludicrous. Dubs didn't 'tack' on the issue of who is a minister (now there is an argument about angels on the head of a needle), they completely reversed course. And no one, including myself, jumped up in the middle of the WT study and yelled 'Stop the Madness' Instead, folks who said we were all ministers one week, said only elders were the next, then said we are all ministers the week after. Without batting an eye, without raising an eyebrow, without snickering. I could only conclude that I had willingly joined a lobotomy club.

Well that was the end for me, but the leaving took longer since my family was hostage.

Damocles

46

Contribution of Franz books on your decision to leave?

by Damocles in

the recent resurrected topic on franz' books got me curious.. how much did his writing contribute to your decision to leave?.

for myself, it was another brick in the wall but not more important than any other.

i was a little different than most in that i regularly read anti-witness stuff from the very beginning and never stopped.

Damocles

Opus,

Thanks.

Got me to thinking, I don't believe any of my children (in or out) have read COC, not that it wasn't around the house for them to read. Curious, I do wonder what they would think of it.

Damocles

46

Contribution of Franz books on your decision to leave?

by Damocles in

the recent resurrected topic on franz' books got me curious.. how much did his writing contribute to your decision to leave?.

for myself, it was another brick in the wall but not more important than any other.

i was a little different than most in that i regularly read anti-witness stuff from the very beginning and never stopped.

Damocles

Dissed,

I agree. If Franz is that out of it, what's to fear? Should be nothing. Objections should strengthen your beliefs as you find good ways to combat the wrong ideas...not the other way around.

Thanks

Damocles

46

Contribution of Franz books on your decision to leave?

by Damocles in

the recent resurrected topic on franz' books got me curious.. how much did his writing contribute to your decision to leave?.

for myself, it was another brick in the wall but not more important than any other.

i was a little different than most in that i regularly read anti-witness stuff from the very beginning and never stopped.

Damocles

Jeff,

Cool!

Maybe thats some of the difference in perspective. I joined in my 20s (1970) so I had some experience with religions. There is a real difference between those that are raised dubs and those that joined. Gives me a fair amount of guilt since I raised children as dubs.

Anway, thanks for sharing. I like the different perspective.

Damocles

28

Newly fading and having morbid thoughts about dying....is that normal?!

by 2pink in

jw
friends

i have been having doubts for years about the org, but it's mostly been just the past couple of months that it's really all unravelled for me.

i'm at that stage now where i don't know what i believe about anything...esp about what happens when you die.. and maybe it's just cause i never had to think about death before (was always countin' on that resurrection in paradise earth!

), but lately i can't stop thinking about it!

Damocles

2Pink,

i mean, people who were never JW don't walk around all day thinking that death could be around the next corner....they just live. how do i get to that stage?!

My, my, that's a tough subject and counseling is in order as others have suggested, but be careful, the search for the honest man is easier than the search for a competent therapist.

This kind of discussion among friends is really best done in a quiet evening with one's choice of libation..the internet is a poor substitute.. but for what its worth.

No one in my family is a JW and there is every variant in the world in my family in the view of death. One relative was a devout catholic, 94 years old and held onto life for all she was worth, kicking and screaming till she went. Another was Methodist, died early and asked us all to throw a huge party because she was going to her reward. My grandfather ignored the issue and I have never seen such fear in a man as he faced death - even though he was a pretty tough guy or at least he scared the shit out of me as I grew up.

Point is, your assumption that folks just live with the idea of death... well let's just say its not quite that simple.

I have observed that one point of the mid-life crisis is to come to grips with our own mortality - and we each do it in our own way. My wife ignores it. Having thought about it she would prefer to not think about it. For myself, death is not an enemy but a relief. One I'm not quite ready for but nearly.

General Ulysses S Grant died of throat cancer. Having squandered all his accumulated resources and leaving his family destitute he wrote his memoirs and with herculean discipline kept at it till he was done so that the proceeds would keep his family.

On his deathbed, his boyhood friend visited him and reminisced about the time the friend saved Grant's life as a youngster. The friend recounted all that Grant had done in his life - Mexican American War, Civil War, Presidency - and said 'well its been quite a life that would not have been had I not saved you (drowning if memory serves).'

Grant thought about it, looked pensive, and said, " Yes, it has been quite a life...but you know, once is enough"

That's my thought, its been great...but not that great...and once is enough.

Regards

Damocles

BTW Grant's memoirs is one of the great pieces of American writing. I recommend it even if it is a tough go.

46

Contribution of Franz books on your decision to leave?

by Damocles in

the recent resurrected topic on franz' books got me curious.. how much did his writing contribute to your decision to leave?.

for myself, it was another brick in the wall but not more important than any other.

i was a little different than most in that i regularly read anti-witness stuff from the very beginning and never stopped.

Damocles

The recent resurrected topic on Franz' books got me curious.

How much did his writing contribute to your decision to leave?

For myself, it was another brick in the wall but not more important than any other. I was a little different than most in that I regularly read anti-witness stuff from the very beginning and never stopped. If you are correct in your beliefs, you don't fear the opposition - you learn and grow from it.

COC for me was a confirmation of what I already thought, although I loved the details of the operation. I always figured that if you wanted to know how things worked with the GB look at local elders. JWs are such a top-down, controlling group that the local congregation should be a near perfect reflection of the GB. Franz confirmed that opinion. It all had the ring of truth.

Also, he confirmed for me that precedent and organizational survival were paramount. Nothing tops those two guiding lights. And how is that different than any other organization, religion or business? Not much in my opinion.

On the negative side, I never really bought his self-justification that he left as a result of conscience. He was kicked out after all, he didn't resign. Not that I want to judge. JWs F%&k with your mind so much that we all leave in our own ways and no one is in a position to judge another in that regard IMHO. Leaving with sanity and some dignity intact is sufficient. Curiously, though, his inability to sell me on that idea made the veracity of the rest more sure in my mind.

Damocles

93

If your happy leaving the truth why continue.............

by angel eyes in

just want to know why some of you,not all,please dont think im meaning all of you because that truly isnt the case,claim to be happy for leaving the truth,being df etc yet you continue to speak about jehovah or attack him or the organisation??

even for many years after.. this would show that your hurt by them df you.

when someone we love hurts us its natural to want to hurt them back because we have feelings for them.so im thinking that many have love for jehovah still??

Damocles

Angel Eyes

I haven't read all the posts and so probably someone else has said what I have to say. Apologies for the possible redundancy.

I have two reasons for visiting the web-site and now and again speaking my piece.

The first has to do with the type of people in it - mostly thoughtful, well-read well-spoken people. It was just that sort of person who drew me to the dubs in the late 60s. I still have oh so fond memories of deep spiritual and intellectual discussions on just about every topic. I haven't found anything like it before or since - even at 'major' universities where I studied science and philosophy. BUT, all those people quit, were kicked out, or just shut up in the years since then. Quite a few of those who quit or were kicked out landed here. So, I find something of a trace of the heady good ole days here.

The second is that I have family members in the religion that will not talk to me ... unless its business. What a crock! If you won't talk to me otherwise why do you think I would talk business with you? Business dealings with a witness....not if my life depended on it. Burned once, not twice.

Anyway, although I am content in having made the decision to leave, knowing I would lose friends and family, that doesn't mean it doesn't hurt. It also means that one of the only ways I have of even remotely staying a bit connected to the ones I love, is to see whats happening in their world by way of this website.

Damocles