wPlum Crazy, my wife is black. My introduction to racism was when I met her relatives and the brotha brothers and sista sisters from her hall. Prior to that I had only known a couple of blacks in my mostly white schools, other than a brief time (a couple months) at a school in Alabama. The things that happened in that school were pretty much the same as happened in any other school. But I have come to conclude that the single most racist people are blacks. My reasons can go to another post sometime.
Utopian said:
My main point is irish people are WHITE like most europeans, and therefore did not suffer the SAME level and degree of hate and prejudice and violence as african-americans, hispanics, native american indians.
One word bull. My main point was that racism, hate, prejudice and violence is not skin color based. You are right that the Irish didnt face the same as the africans or hispanics, they faced worse. And you are right that they didnt face the same as the Native Americans, they faced nearly the same. The irish were over a period of several hundred years continually exterminated by famine, ever since Queen Elizabeth.
Also if you read my post you saw that I said they are white, yes and no, it depends on what you are talking about. Tell the greeks they are white. That was one point. The other was that the rest of europe did not consider them white and treated them thusly.
Further, if you knew I was going to split hairs, why call us anglo-saxons, why not just say we are white skinned. Yet agian I will state the hate, racism, prejudice, and violence the Irish have faced was not to do because they were 'physically' darker, but were considered spiritually, mentally, and morally darker.
you will NOT find mobs of americans lynching irish immigrants, or hangings, or burining irish homes.
Wrong again, especially at the turn of the century. No one is claiming that these things are going on now. Nor are we claiming that they went on for as sustained a time or as long a time as they have against blacks.
By the time italians starting arriving, most of the police and fire departments had already been subjugated and controlled by the irish, a legacy surviving to this day.
No disagreement there. Btw I am not a particular fan of the police. I used to be antagonistic to them, until a black woman pointed out that cops, good or bad, if you call, they will usually show up to help you. I still think there are incredible abuses however.
What legacy is there for post-civil war african americans? Is there anything like a piper's band and shamrocks to lead a procession or holiday parade of proud african americans in some particular field, job or service?
Do you expect a white man to make that legacy for you? The Irish are proud perhaps because of the things they have gone through and survived. I will also state that there is no questioning the marring that slavery has done on a people. Two things I see as most vile about the way slavery in america was practiced. First is the removing of the man's and the woman's ancestral name, and thus identity. Second is the forced expulsion of any remains of their language with the same intent. We Irish have a distinct look, like africans. We are a loud and obnoxious, no denying it. But the thing that really seperates us, is we held on to our names and parts of our language. I think if africans had done the same or had not been stripped of those, these conversations we would be having would be different.
You mentioned Carnegie a while ago. True he pilfered his Irish brethren. And there are Irish that steal, kill, and hurt other Irish no doubt about it. But as a group, Irish in America did two things. We stuck together, usually in our own communities. Just as other groups did, Italians, Germans, and Chinese for example. But we also assimilated. These are two additional problems that prevent blacks from having a legacy. They refuse to assimilate. Frankly good for them. Why is anglo culture superior to others anyhow? The other reason is the amount of trouble they cause each other. All the complaints about violence against blacks? Well the reality is, that most of it is in fact black on black. As a group, a community, there are enough dissenters not sticking together, to prevent you, if you allow it, from having a legacy.
On the other hand, despite black on black crime, the reality also is that most blacks are not committing crimes. Many blacks have deep family roots. And more than a few blacks are not slaves, but are kings. And that is yet another difference between the Irish. Most of us are descended form royalty. Of course it is true that they were petting kingships. Really often nothing more than king in name only over anywhere between five and twenty of their others, to tens of thousands. But still, that is a legacy handed down to us in our stories. Dontcha know all Irish have 'a castle back home, all we have to do is go claim it.' A story told by countless Irish families.
Stop waiting for someone to make your legacy. If blacks are not the predominant in a specific field, job, or service, then decide which one you want to be in and go do it. I assume of course you are not talking about music or sports, which they do predominate in.
I am a king. I am a god. I am a god, partly because of my Irish ancestry. But mostly I am a god simply because I choose it to be so. If you wish also, or other blacks than simply do it, be it. Living gods. If blacks have no legacy now, they never will until they create it.
[quotes]Were the irish ever forced to sleep in separate quarters while risking their lives in military service during wartime? Did other whites dress themselves and paint themselves like the irish to entertain crowds like the vaudeville entertainers of the 1920's and 1930's? You know the answer.[/quotes]
1...Yes, both in the states, though it was very rare. They were called the Irish regiments. But most especially yes in the UK, world war I and other wars. However this is about American reparations not United Kingdom still we have touched on the views of europeans about the Irish so in that sense only it is relevant.
2...Yes in fact the clown itself comes from the stereotypical view of what an Irishmen looked like and acted like. Red hair, red (drunk) nose, slovenly dressed, clumsy. So while the Amos and Andy of times past is gone, racist symbols against the Irish still exist.
because we would rather pour moeny down the drain (or into WHITE pockets of corrupt officials) rather than allow the government to make partial reparations. That statement will sting, but its true.
Doesnt sting at all. Many people are fed up with Government waste. (I suppose this statement applies to black, hispanic, asian and corrupt officials of other races as well, or are you claiming that black officials are never corrupt?- Honest question here)
Ok now we are getting somewhere. I like your plan, for more than just my statements earlier of pay em off and shut em up. It is entirely reasonable that an entity that participated in something pay the reparations. There is of course the sticky point that slavery was legal at the time. Which gives rise to what happens in the future if certain things are legal, can a person sue. The logistics are what needs contemplated. Although we must also be aware it will hit us all eventually.
Business loans, tuition and home financing are good things no complaint there. Another honest question, more about logistics. If this succeeds, and ten years from now many blacks have homes... What happens if the native americans sue for land reparations.
There is much to be proud in your history. Find it, enjoy it and make examples for yourself.
I agree the same with frankly all groups. My dad, I have nothing to do with him. However I learned many things from him that have benefited me. THings you could almost say for which I would be proud. All of these things between cultures, are not good and bad, righteous and wicked, they are simply things we like or dislike. How do we get as many things as we like and eliminate as many things as we dislike, though personally I like a lot of the things I dislike. If I dislike a certain aspect of a culture, if it is done in strength then I like it.
I also apreciate your saying my Gaelic roots. (Gay - lick? ewwww hehe) I do not mind being called white, I merely point out what europeans thought of us. But, I vehemently object to being called anglo.
However, the final conclusion is immigration and slavery are an apples and oranges comparison. One is deserving of reparation, and the other is questionable.
I agree, the immigrants deserve reparations and slaves getting them are questionable at best. But they are not apples and oranges. When a man's father dies, and is murdered in a state sponsered attack, the pain he feels is very intense, because it is internal, not skin based.
Also if reparations were to be paid for slavery, here is a thought. Both from the US govt and others, let monies be paid, so that those in slavery in african can be bought out. Most people are unaware that some twenty seven million people, by conservative estimates, are enslaved today. It costs fifty dollars american to buy a slave, and there are groups that do, to free them. How many african americans that are wailing about slavery, are even blinking an eye at their brethren in other countries. The Irish suffered terrible famines. Now, most famine relief organizations are run by Irish. I suggest the same with african americans for slave relief, and education organizations.
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Puffsrule: Of course we see the pattern, that is why so many whites are against slavery reparations, one reason among many.
Utopian Your comments larc are reasonable answers. However:
4. Should the Egyptians pay the Jews for their time in slavery?YES.
I disagree entirely for this reason. The only 'evidence' that the jews were enslaved to the egyptians is Torah. Of which we do not have complete copies older than about the tenth century A.D. None of the other nations historical records verify this claim of the jews. It is accepted as fact by most of the world now, merely because christianity became the dominant religion. Had another religion done so, say Mithraism, then the stories of the jews would have been relegated to the status of fables, just as most other ancient religions stories are now.
Larc said:
Based on this limited information, is there anything that you can tell me about their most likely origins in Ireland and Scotland?
This was a period huge upheaval in Eire Larc. I have to check my dates but I believe it was around the 1780's that the Irish Parliment was disolved, and the several nations (Alba, Eire, England, Cornwall, Wales, etc etc) became 'The United Kingdom'. Of course that name was all bluster because it was very disunited. I can do some reading to catch myself up on that period and can then tell you the general happenings there. But even with a specific family name, unless it is a famous one, such as Ó Foirtcheirn (my name), Ó Neil, Ó Brian, etc. I will probably be unable to tell you specifics. But I will also look up some sites that might help.
Again with the upheavals understand that a lot of things had gone into law by that time. An Irishman could not own a horse worth more then five pounds, we could not own property, our marraiges were not recognized by the state (thus giving rise to the claim of Irish fornication and lewdness) and our births were not registered by the state. Fortunatly we had the church for those sorts of things. Unfortunately each church kept its own records, there was no nationally archives. Which means researching lineage often ends for many people with the Sept.
Sept is probably prounced Shev se and si in Irish having the SH sound as in Sean. A sept was similar but not identical to a clan. We did not have clans, and there is no such thing as an irish Tartan...if someone ever tries to sell you one for your family name, they are swindlers. They may honestly believe the tartan is real for the Irish. But it wasnt. Clan, means children, just as Tuatha does, which also means tribe. Thus Tuatha de Danaan, are children of the Goddess Danu. Goddess merely being an ancestor. A sept is all the people in a specific geographical region with the same name. They may or may not be related, though most likely they are related.
There are three designiations for descent. Ó which means grandson of. Mac which means son of. And Ní which means daughter of. So for instance Sinead Ó Connor is properly Sinead Ní Connor. The Irish are patrilineal, descent traced through the father, and matrilineal, descent traced through the mother. Jesus is more often called Jesus, son of Mary (Mhuire) than son of god. Mhuire btw while meaning Mary, means specifically THAT Mary, and only that Mary. There are other Irish versions of Mary that are used for other women.
One of the easiest ways to tell your roots, besides family name, is religion. If they were catholic they were most likely Irish Irish. If however they were anglican, then they were most likely of anglo descent, or anglo interbreeding. The Scots are most likely presbyterian. So for instance with my mother's family name 'fortune', If I was thinking I was irish but our religion was Anglican, then I would know I am anglo, if it were presbyterian I would know I was scot. As it is, it was Catholic.
First I will do some general history as part of my searchs for Utopian, and then I can direct you to some places about Irish lineage if you wish to research back farther, and to Eire. But, it is a very complicated process to do so.
