Wow! 3 years after commencing to lurk here you are still serving and the penny has dropped with your wife!
Congratulations!!
Another example of keeping the "privileges" and being the last one out to increase the chance of rescuing our loved ones
Thanks for sharing OM!
LUKEWARM
JoinedPosts by LUKEWARM
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For Active JW Men: Ideas on Awakening Your JW Spouse (Long post)
by Open mind indisclaimer: your mileage may vary.
if you are a married, "active, in good standing" (tm), jw male who has recently discovered that the .
watchtower is not what it claims to be, this thread is for you.
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Our Kingdom Ministry 2009 tells sick & infirm NOT to view telephone hook-up as convenient alternative to being personally present at KH!
by LUKEWARM ini am feeling sick after reading the question box - it's so cold and unfeeling toward those who use the telephone to listen to congregation meetings.. .
the wts desire to control their weakest members - the infirm and chronically ill - by guilting them into "putting forth the effort to be personally present " at the kingdom hall is disgusting.. .
they are heartless bastards.... ________________________________________.
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LUKEWARM
I am feeling sick after reading the question box - it's so cold and unfeeling toward those who use the telephone to listen to congregation meetings.
The WTS desire to control their weakest members - the infirm and chronically ill - by guilting them into "putting forth the effort to be personally present " at the kingdom hall is disgusting.
They are heartless bastards...________________________________________
Question Box:
Why is there a need for good judgement in connection with the use of a telephone hook-up for congregation meetings?
Many congregations have made it possible for individuals who at times are unable to attend congregation meetings at the kingdom hall because of illness or some other unavoidable circumstance to listen to the meeting at home by means of a telephone hook-up. Ensuring that this loving provision is used by those who are truly in need requires good judgement and careful organization. Hence, the elders overseeing such an arrangement would want to organize and monitor its use so that "all things take place decently and by arrangement." 1 Cor. 14:40.
Elders will see to it that priority is given to publishers in their congregation with chronic illness or infirmity or who are otherwise shut-in. A publisher temporarily ill or incapacitated, or a progressive Bible student who may be shut-in, might likewise benefit from this provision and be included in the attendance count. Where there are not enough telephone lines to accommodate those with a legitimate need, perhaps other arrangements, such as providing them with a recording of the meeting, can be made.
Of course, nothing can compare to the benefits derived from being personally present at our meetings. Our direct association with our brothers results in "an interchange of encouragement" and helps new ones better appreciate the need to attend. When we are present at our meetings, we absorb far more from demonstrations, the elders are able to give us personal assistance, and we experience firsthand the warm love of the brotherhood. True indeed are the sentiments of one elderly sister who, after receiving a hug as she was exiting the kingdom hall exclaimed: "You can't get this over the phone line!" - Rom. 1:11,12
Like Anna "who was never missing from the temple", today, many of our older ones are regularly on hand at Christian meetings as their health and circumstances allow. (Luke 2:36,37) While using the telephone hook-up when necessary, they do not view it as a convenient alternative to attending meetings at the Kingdom Hall. In imitation of their fine example, may we continue to delight in putting forth the effort to be personally present at our meetings as we worship our great God, Jehovah. - Ps. 95:1-3, 6; 122:1. -
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Fade rapidly OR jeopardise the fade by helping family/friends learn the truth and remain part of our lives?
by LUKEWARM incan i say from the outset that i feel grief and frustration over family/friends that are not aware of the truth about the "truth".
they are good people who genuinely believe - as we all did at one time- that they are in gods organization and that this is what he requires of them.. .
how liberating for us to have come to know the real truth and how sad they remain guilt ridden and under mind control that fosters these conditional friendships that bother us so much.. .
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LUKEWARM
dozy -These conversations and "softening" I refer to have been going on for almost 12 months. Agree with you that it is impossible to convince others - they will have to make that voyage of discovery themselves - and this is where I feel I can assist to provide info that I found interesting. I'm hoping I can help to accelerate their curiosity/willingness to start their own investigations...
OTWO -Wasting time is not as important for me as getting our family/friends out. We do the barest possible but nevertheless I'm not up to doing this for a prolonged period of time. You are spot on that friends can only be helped if they are ready to be helped. I feel that the conversations and the admissions received from friends/family thus far and the material exchanged suggest to me that they are not blind fools and they certainly do not agree with the WTS in all matters. We joke about how dumbed down the publications are, how repetitive the meetings are, how useless the field ministry is etc. They have read information I have presented and comment about it openly. I feel they are ready for information but can only take things in small doses. All the negatives have not stacked up yet for them to view the organization as useless...
Albert Enstein -
You are right regarding any children - it would be difficult and unfair on them to continue with the deception.
leavingwt -Yes, red them both only a few weeks ago and picked up some valuable tips for getting people to think for themselves...
tjlibre -
Welcome to the board. Good to hear you are using your position as elder to influence positive outcomes and help others. Hope you can help your wife first and then the both of you may be able to help others see the truth. Agree with you that spreading the seed is better than just leaving and that we should try and help those that can really be helped. In order to do this, black sheep said (above) that we need to be the last ones out - not sure I have the staying power! "Crisis of Conscience" and Rays second book "In Search of Christian Freedom" were a real eye opener for me and set me free mentally. -
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Congregation "Bible Study" Comments - Week Commencing 2 November 2009
by LUKEWARM in*** lv chap.
12 pp.
133-143 speak what "is good for building up" ***.
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LUKEWARM
*** lv chap. 12 pp. 133-143 Speak What "Is Good for Building Up" ***
"Let a rotten saying not proceed out of your mouth, but whatever saying is good for building up."-EPHESIANS 4:29.
Q1-3. (a) What is one gift that Jehovah has given us, and how can it be misused? (b) To remain in God's love, how do we need to use the gift of speech?IF YOU were to give a loved one a gift, how would you feel if he deliberately misused it? Say that you gave him a car, and you later learned that he drove it recklessly, causing injury to others. Would you not be disappointed?
How many JW's can relate to this illustration? How many of them can afford to gift somebody a car?? Obviously the WTS doesn't understand the predicament of the rank and file who struggle to update and drive decent cars, because the "worldwide brotherhood" is paying for the lease, fuel, registration and servicing of their new vehicle fleet.
2 The ability to utter intelligible speech is a gift from Jehovah, the Giver of "every good gift and every perfect present." (James 1:17) This gift, which sets the human family apart from the animal creation, enables us to convey not just our thoughts but also our feelings to others. Like a motor vehicle, however, the gift of speech can be misused. How it must disappoint Jehovah when speech is used recklessly, causing heartache and pain to others!
Intelligible speech? Would you describe this WTS doctrine of Daniel's 2300 days intelligent?
***dp chap. 10 pp. 177-179 Who Can Stand Against the Prince of Princes? ***
"26 For "the holy place" to be "brought," or restored, to what it should be, the 2,300 days must have begun when it previously was in the "right condition" from God's standpoint. At the earliest, this was on June 1, 1938, when The Watchtower published part 1 of the article "Organization." Part 2 appeared in the issue of June 15, 1938. Counting 2,300 days (6 years, 4 months, and 20 days on the Hebrew calendar) from June 1 or 15, 1938, brings us to October 8 or 22, 1944. On the first day of a special assembly held at Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania, U.S.A., on September 30 and October 1, 1944, the Watch Tower Society's president spoke on the subject "The Theocratic Alignment Today." At the annual corporate meeting on October 2, the Society's charter was amended in an effort to bring it as close to a theocratic arrangement as the law would allow. With the publication of clarified Biblical requirements, theocratic organization was soon more fully installed in the congregations of Jehovah's Witnesses.
27 While the 2,300 days ran their course during World War II, which began in 1939, the offering of "the constant feature" at God's sanctuary was severely restricted because of persecution. In 1938 the Watch Tower Society had 39 branches supervising the work of the Witnesses worldwide, but by 1943 there were only 21. Increases in the number of Kingdom proclaimers were also small during that period.
28 As we have noted, during the closing months of World War II, Jehovah's Witnesses reaffirmed their determination to magnify God's rulership by serving him as a theocratic organization. It was with this objective that the rearrangement of their work and governing structure was initiated in 1944. In fact, The Watchtower of October 15, 1944, contained an article entitled "Organized for Final Work." It and other service-oriented articles of the same period indicated that the 2,300 days had ended and that "the holy place" was again in its "right condition."
3 To remain in God's love, we need to use the gift of speech as the Giver intended. Jehovah leaves no doubt about the kind of speech that pleases him. His Word says: "Let a rotten saying not proceed out of your mouth, but whatever saying is good for building up as the need may be, that it may impart what is favorable to the hearers." (Ephesians 4:29) Let us discuss why we need to keep on guard when it comes to speech, what speech we should avoid, and how we can utter speech that "is good for building up."
"...whatever saying is good for building up"? How up building are their words at meetings and in their publications to constantly make people feel guilty for not doing enough? How up building was it for them to have published and promoted this false prophecy?
"Today, a small percentage of mankind can still recall the dramatic events of 1914. Will that elderly generation pass away before God saves the earth from ruin? Not according to Bible prophecy. 'When you see all these things,' Jesus promised, 'know that he is near at the doors. Truly I say to you that this generation will by no means pass away until all these things occur.' - Matthew 24:33, 34." (Watchtower May 1, 1992 page 3: The Year That Shocked The World)
WHY WE NEED TO GUARD OUR SPEECH
Q4, 5. How do some Bible proverbs describe the power of words?4 One important reason to guard our speech is that words have power. Proverbs 15:4 says: "The calmness of the tongue is a tree of life, but distortion in it means a breaking down in the spirit." Even as water revives a thirsty tree, so the calm speech of a soothing tongue can refresh the spirit of those hearing it. In contrast, the twisted words of a perverse tongue can crush the spirit of others. Indeed, the words we speak have the power to injure or to heal.-Proverbs 18:21.
"words have power" especially if you convince people that you speak for God. How many people have been injured some crushed by the WTS? How many have died unecessaraly because of their twisting of the scriptures?
5 Vividly describing the power of words, another proverb says: "There exists the one speaking thoughtlessly as with the stabs of a sword." (Proverbs 12:18) Thoughtless words said in haste can cause deep emotional wounds and destroy relationships. Has your heart ever been pierced by the thrusts of a verbal sword? On the positive side, the same proverb says: "The tongue of the wise ones is a healing." Thoughtful words from one who manifests godly wisdom can mend an aching heart and restore relationships. Can you recall an occasion when you experienced the healing power of kind words? (Proverbs 16:24) Recognizing that spoken words have power, we certainly want to use our speech to heal others, not to hurt them.
How many were "pierced by the thrusts of" this "verbal sword" after the elders parroted this admonition to a marriage mate that wanted to end their marriage:
"...While both homosexuality and bestiality are disgusting perversions, in the case of neither one is the marriage tie broken. It is broken only by acts that make an individual "one flesh" with a person of the opposite sex other than his or her legal marriage mate." W72 1/1 p.31:
Q6. Why is it a real struggle to control our tongue?6 No matter how hard we try, we cannot completely control our tongue. Here, then, is a second reason why we need to keep on guard respecting our speech: Sin and imperfection incline us toward misusing our tongue. Words are a product of our heart, and "the inclination of the heart of man is bad." (Genesis 8:21; Luke 6:45) Bridling our tongue is therefore a real struggle. (James 3:2-4) Although we cannot gain perfect control of our tongue, we can keep working at making improvement in how we use it. Just as a swimmer trying to swim upstream has to keep fighting the current, so we have to keep fighting the sinful tendency to misuse our tongue.
How hypocritical for them to counsel others on the misuse of the tongue considering they have a 120 year history of misusing their tongue in the name of God. Here is an example of elevating their man made doctrine to the same level as the Bible:
"Our coming to know "the truth" - the entire body of Christian teachings that has become part of the Bible - and adhering to it are essential for our salvation. - Watchtower December 15 2008, pg 28.
Q7, 8. To what extent does Jehovah hold us accountable for our words?7 A third reason to guard our speech is that Jehovah holds us accountable for our words. The way we use our tongue affects not only our relationship with fellow humans but also our standing with Jehovah. James 1:26 says: "If any man seems to himself to be a formal worshiper and yet does not bridle his tongue, but goes on deceiving his own heart, this man's form of worship is futile." As we saw in the preceding chapter, our speech is not independent of our worship. If our tongue is unbridled-spewing out hurtful, poisonous speech-all of our Christian works could be rendered worthless in God's eyes. Is that not a sobering thought?-James 3:8-10.
"...Jehovah holds us accountable for our words" Wow - just as Jesus said:
"Why, then, do you look at the straw in your brother's eye, but do not consider the rafter in your own eye? Or how can you say to your brother, 'Allow me to extract the straw from your own eye'; when, look! a rafter is in your own eye? Hypocrite! First extract the rafter from your own eye, and then you will see clearly how to extract the straw from your brother's eye." - Matthew 7: 3-5 NWT.
8 It is clear that we have strong reasons to guard against misusing the gift of speech. Before we consider wholesome forms of speech that build up, let us discuss speech that certainly has no place in the life of a true Christian. -
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Fade rapidly OR jeopardise the fade by helping family/friends learn the truth and remain part of our lives?
by LUKEWARM incan i say from the outset that i feel grief and frustration over family/friends that are not aware of the truth about the "truth".
they are good people who genuinely believe - as we all did at one time- that they are in gods organization and that this is what he requires of them.. .
how liberating for us to have come to know the real truth and how sad they remain guilt ridden and under mind control that fosters these conditional friendships that bother us so much.. .
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LUKEWARM
Son of Man -I think you have misunderstood me - I am open about my beliefs and my purpose for not rapidly fading is to give people I care about the opportunity to gain understanding of the alternative arguments so they can make up their own mind about the future. If they choose WTS that is ok because their decision will be an informed one and I will feel that my duty of care has been discharged...
Freddo -
Sorry to hear you wife is not on the same page...it makes the whole experience so much harder. You are right that "placing" CoC can be a dangerous manoeuvre but in my experience you can only do so with close friends who have been softened up over time. Seeking commitment from them to want to read it is the crucial part...I told one of my friends openly that I stumbled across CoC by accident and that my curiosity got the better of me. Then I told him that the reason I am so honest about the matter is that if the situation was reversed, I would appreciate and expect him to tell me about his discoveries so I could then make up my own mind about the material...
no more cool aid -Agree, each situation is different and I am not doing this with all our friends. Some are die hards that are not willing to do anything but parrot the WTS line. With these its too dangerous to proceed. Other friends are willing to reason on points and so are not beyond recovery - it's the approach and how they perceive it that creates the opportunities. Slowly opening their mind to thinking for themselves, questioning and allowing them to reach their own conclusions whilst we are still following the JW routine does not create the barrier and information can be exchanged...
AwSnap -
Introducing "Crisis of Conscience" is one of the last things one should do and not with everybody - I encourage them to question everything and find information themselves online (UN issue, blood etc). I have introduced other material (letters from brothers to the society). Only when they are willing to do this or read the links and discuss does "Crisis of Conscience get introduced...
Black Sheep -
I agree with you 100%! Not sure I have the staying power to be the last one switching off the lights...
Mickey mouse -Well done with hubby and best wishes with your friend. As you mention, time is the issue and the lack of motivation to be on the worthless JW treadmill of works...
MissingLink -
Thank you for the advice - Patience is a must as they can only take small doses of this stuff but I want them in my life after we move on from the JW religion...
Cantleave -
I feel for you as I am in a similar situation. Trying to find the balance between fading and rescuing others...As much as I do not want to jeopardise our fade I cannot leave all these people behind without helping them. Please don't give up on your family and friends - reason with them from the Bible, slowly introduce information - if they ever get out they will have so much to thank you for!!
Observador -
A good point you make - we are eager to share our learning's and often convey information too quickly which has the propensity to backfire. Taking things slowly is the key - but there are no guarantees. Hope you can get to your family somehow...
Inbetween -
You are playing this smart - playing by the WTS rules, and using these "privileges" to your advantage in influencing and helping others. Let the self-righteous ones slave away for the publishing corporation - focus you energy on family and friends who you want in your life after the shunning commences...
drew sagan -
Sorry to hear of your wife's disappointing experience - although my in-laws have been receptive, my side of the family remains quite commited to the religion. Also, you make a valid point - there are no second chances and it can backfire at any time. I have thought out plan B if somebody decides to go to the elders... -
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1976 Questions By Jehovah's Witnesses
by cabasilas inback in 1976 a network of jws began discussions on some subjects and were surprised their questions about the wt society were similar.
they sent out thousands of copies of a 20 page letter to kingdom halls in several countries.
i remember hearing about it from a couple of elders when it happened.
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Fade rapidly OR jeopardise the fade by helping family/friends learn the truth and remain part of our lives?
by LUKEWARM incan i say from the outset that i feel grief and frustration over family/friends that are not aware of the truth about the "truth".
they are good people who genuinely believe - as we all did at one time- that they are in gods organization and that this is what he requires of them.. .
how liberating for us to have come to know the real truth and how sad they remain guilt ridden and under mind control that fosters these conditional friendships that bother us so much.. .
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LUKEWARM
Can I say from the outset that I feel grief and frustration over family/friends that are not aware of the truth about the "truth". They are good people who genuinely believe - as we all did at one time- that they are in Gods organization and that this is what He requires of them.
How liberating for us to have come to know the real truth and how sad they remain guilt ridden and under mind control that fosters these conditional friendships that bother us so much.
What is the best way to help them or should we be content at no longer being subject to the tentacles of the WTS?I have read many accounts on this board about people loosing family and friends when they became aware of the real truth and faded from the Jehovah's Witness religion.
It seems from my observations (and I might be wrong) that many here have got their family and friends off side by not taking their time to fade - but have done so rapidly - perhaps esteeming their freedom more than applying time, energy and resources whilst remaining Jehovah's Witnesses in good standing to assist their family and friends to learn the truth and exit with them.
Yes, leading a double life is not easy as it requires much time and inconvenience, but I honestly feel that if one is in a position to do so, being on the inside is the best chance to get through to them as they are extremely protective and paranoid of anyone on the outside. When one leaves the organization, they perceive you to have "left Jehovah" and a mental barrier is created. As "Jehovah" always comes first, planting seeds of doubt, giving them the chance to absorb information, to ask personal questions or reason becomes that much more difficult if not impossible.
I want my family and friends to remain part of my life and for the time being, am prepared to inconvenience myself (living a double life) to give them a chance of acquiring the information I have learned so they can make an informed decision about the future.
So far I have had good results - DRIP FEEDING conversations have prepared the ground for the placing of "Crisis of Conscience" with a close friend and "Crisis of Conscience" and later "In Search of Christian Freedom" with my in-laws and 2 elder friends one of which has since stepped aside. Have ordered 2 more "Crisis of Conscience" books for 2 other friends who I am currently softening the ground with...
In my opinion it takes many different subtle comments over a long period of time to chip away at the mind control and encourage Witnesses to think for themselves and stop just parroting the official WTS line. Once they are in a position to do so, then material can be introduced that can educate and truly liberate them....
I don't know how much longer I can lead this double life...although seeing that some of our friends will be liberated and remain part of our lives brings me a measure of satisfaction.
If only people took the time to help educate me, I would not have wasted more precious years slaving away for a publishing corporation!
So what do you think - what is the best approach to help our family/friends remain part of our lives? -
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LUKEWARM
Welcome MADJW,
In answer to your question, read this and tell us what you think
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"What should you do when directed to stop preaching?" KM question box
by slimboyfat inwe had that question as an item in the service meeting tonight.
the answer was that we should comply immediately whether it is a police officer or just a caretaker of a block of flats who asks us to stop.
we shouldn't answer back or dispute the issue.
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Congregation "Bible Study" Comments - Week Commencing 26 October 2009
by LUKEWARM in*** lv pp.
219-221 the bible's view on divorce and separation ***.
jehovah expects those who are married to remain faithful to the marriage vow.
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LUKEWARM
*** lv pp. 219-221 The Bible's View on Divorce and Separation ***
Jehovah expects those who are married to remain faithful to the marriage vow. When uniting the first man and woman in marriage, Jehovah stated: "A man . . . must stick to his wife and they must become one flesh." Later, Jesus Christ repeated that statement and added: "Therefore, what God has yoked together let no man put apart." (Genesis 2:24; Matthew 19:3-6) Hence, Jehovah and Jesus view marriage as a lifelong bond that ends only when one partner dies. (1 Corinthians 7:39) Since marriage is a sacred arrangement, divorce is not to be taken lightly. In fact, Jehovah hates divorces that have no Scriptural basis.-Malachi 2:15, 16.
What forms a Scriptural basis for divorce? Well, Jehovah hates adultery and fornication. (Genesis 39:9; 2 Samuel 11:26, 27; Psalm 51:4) Indeed, he finds fornication so despicable that he allows it as grounds for divorce. (For a discussion of what fornication involves, refer to Chapter 9, paragraph 7, where fornication is explained.) Jehovah grants the innocent mate the right to decide whether to remain with the guilty partner or to seek a divorce. (Matthew 19:9) Hence, if an innocent mate decides to seek a divorce, that one does not take a step that Jehovah hates. At the same time, however, the Christian congregation does not encourage anyone to seek a divorce. In fact, some circumstances may move the innocent mate to remain with the guilty one, especially if that one is genuinely repentant. In the end, though, those who have a Scriptural basis for divorce must make their own decision and accept whatever consequences it may bring.-Galatians 6:5.
So we need to consult the WTS definition of fornication - the Bible is not sufficient enough?
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/102445/1/Elders-school-notes-Part-6-The-JW-Talmud-and-Trust-Us
In certain extreme situations, some Christians have decided to separate from or divorce a marriage mate even though that one has not committed fornication. In such a case, the Bible stipulates that the departing one "remain unmarried or else make up again." (1 Corinthians 7:11) Such a Christian is not free to pursue a third party with a view to remarriage. (Matthew 5:32) Consider here a few exceptional situations that some have viewed as a basis for separation.
Willful nonsupport. A family may become destitute, lacking the basic essentials of life, because the husband fails to provide for them, although being able to do so. The Bible states: "If anyone does not provide for . . . members of his household, he has disowned the faith and is worse than a person without faith." (1 Timothy 5:8) If such a man refuses to change his ways, the wife would have to decide whether she needs to protect her welfare and that of her children by obtaining a legal separation. Of course, Christian elders should give careful consideration to an accusation that a Christian refuses to support his family. Refusal to care for one's family may result in disfellowshipping.
Extreme physical abuse. An abusive spouse may act so violently that the abused mate's health and even life are in danger. If the abusive spouse is a Christian, congregation elders should investigate the charges. Fits of anger and a practice of violent behaviour are grounds for disfellowshipping.-Galatians 5:19-21.
Absolute endangerment of spiritual life. A spouse may constantly try to make it impossible for the mate to pursue true worship or may even try to force that mate to break God's commands in some way. In such a case, the threatened mate would have to decide whether the only way to "obey God as ruler rather than men" is to obtain a legal separation.-Acts 5:29.
If a mate does not agree with the WTS and tries to help the other party see the truth about the "truth," the other party can separate. The mate should be more loyal to WTS corporation than to their spouse! Where is that in the Bible?
In all cases involving such extreme situations as those just discussed, no one should put pressure on the innocent mate either to separate or to stay with the other. While spiritually mature friends and elders may offer support and Bible-based counsel, they cannot know all the details of what goes on between a husband and a wife. Only Jehovah can see that. Of course, a Christian wife would not be honouring God or the marriage arrangement if she exaggerated the seriousness of her domestic problems just to live separately from her husband, or vice versa. Jehovah is aware of any scheming behind a separation, no matter how one may try to hide it. Indeed, "all things are naked and openly exposed to the eyes of him with whom we have an accounting." (Hebrews 4:13) But if an extremely dangerous situation persists, no one should criticize a Christian who, as a last resort, chooses to separate. In the final analysis, "we shall all stand before the judgment seat of God."-Romans 14:10-12.
Bible-based counsel - so can they do so without the aid of WTS publications?