Posts by winstonchurchill

20

Question for Any current Elders or recently departed elders

by geevee in

i have been asked about a situation in which a former witnesses ladies now ex-husband has been caught exposing himself, and this has gone on for at least 15 years.

he has also exposed himself to some close family members.

the question relates to the wt explaination of "porniea".

winstonchurchill

They just don't take it very seriously, and they do not see it as grounds for divorce.

Because as per WTS rules it is not. I'm not saying I agree; but that's how it is.

They diffinately do not see it as harming anyone, even if he is exposing himself to young children.

Elders are supposed to defend justice and righteousness... Most don't. They can't distinguish what's just and fair, as they are too worried about sticking to the letter of the rules. Take it from me (I'm an elder, and I serve among elders): MOST DON'T CARE about anything other that their personal good standing in front of the CO and the WTS. So they don't like geting involved in these 'weird' cases (they like the easy ones).

They also told his wife that she had no grounds for divorce and that if she was a better wife he would probably stop doing that.

NO SUPRISE there: Way to frequent diregard for real victim feelings.

20

Question for Any current Elders or recently departed elders

by geevee in

i have been asked about a situation in which a former witnesses ladies now ex-husband has been caught exposing himself, and this has gone on for at least 15 years.

he has also exposed himself to some close family members.

the question relates to the wt explaination of "porniea".

winstonchurchill

Elder here!

as per WTS, Porneia = imporper use of (at least) one person's genitalia. There has to be another person (or an animal) involved. There has to be manipulation (not just casual touch). By 'improper' they mean someone who is not you spouse; tehrefore, Porneia can only hapen out of the wedlock.

Masturbation: Not Porneia (no other person)

Oral/Anal/hand-job,etc.: Porneia

Exposing: Not porneia

While this seems pretty straight and logic, it leaves big gaps and inconsitencies. For example a regular guy can be df'd for fooling with his fiancee's privates, while the perv exposing himself to kids gets to walk.

Any 'legal' system that leaves room for uneven punishments is conceptually flawed.

So as per this policy, nope, she's not free to remarry. Again, Why does she care? She should do what OnTheWayOut suggested.

40

The Secret Pioneer School Manual

by WuzLovesDubs in

jw
friends

i saw one up close and personal because the jw annointed sister who was studying with me, told me that if i looked up every scripture in her (illegally gotten before the school started) pioneer school book and cut it out of old green nwts and pasted them in the margins, it would make her a stronger pioneer and jehovah would reward me.

and in the process i would learn where things were in the bible.. gosh what an incredible honor i was blessed with!

you know i did it..i didnt know a damn thing.

winstonchurchill

I have it. BTW, I have a few. See, I was a CO and served as instructor like for 10 schools; and never returned some leftover books (Same with some KS91 that I kept).

This 'SECRET' stuff is crap pulled by those who want to feel empowered and have something to show off, like they are part of a special group. Since I HATE those people so much, thats why I would always fight the 'seceret book' myth. I even have a letter (back form my CO days) where WTS clarified this.

The OFFICIAL position is that the Pioneer School Book is not secret. I always made a point at the very beggining of each school, stressing that the book was not secret. it was intended for Pioneers, but that didn't mean it was secret. They were encouraged to share it and even study some lessons with others (e.g. someone you were encouraging to become a pioneer).

76

My Father has just past away

by caliber in

jw
friends

yes my father has passed on sunday.... all my family brothers, sister, in-laws are jws .

it is occasions like this that.

make me see why i and countless others are just faders .. not taking that bold step of disassociation .

winstonchurchill

"For there is hope for a tree,
When it is cut down, that it will sprout again,
And its shoots will not fail.
“Though its roots grow old in the ground
And its stump dies in the dry soil,
At the scent of water it will flourish
And put forth sprigs like a plant"

From the book of Job.

My sympathy is with you, your family and your feelings. The influence of a Father is everlasting as MY father showed me, and as I try with my little ones.

44

Are there things they DON'T tell you until AFTER you're baptized?

by lavendar in

jw
friends

.

just wondering....... are there certain teachings / beliefs they don't tell a person who is studying....until after they're baptized?.

.

winstonchurchill

It's not only about what you are not told; it's mainly about you being able to see the implications. When you get batpized at 12, or 16, you are not able to see the implications of what you're doing, the comitment you are making.

And, YES, there are a lot of thing you are not told, as some of you have listed here.

But WORSE is the fact that even if they did tell you all (which they don't) they RESERVE THE RIGHT to CHANGE IT AT ANY TIME and you have to take it or face consequences.

That is ABSURD by any measure. That's signing a contract in whichthe other party says, I can chenge the terms at any time and you don't have a say, and can't walk out of the deal.

So maybe you were baptized knowing that such and such was true, and you believed it, and one day out of the blue THEY CHANGE it, and you cannot say a word. You have to swallow it or be DF'd.

48

Have You Ever Walked Out Of a KH "Meeting"?

by african GB Member in

did you have enough of boasting, and decided to walk out?.

that's what happened to me during this week's bs about how to "treat the disfellowshipped"?.

i just picked up my bag and stormed out...... will i get called into the back room?.

winstonchurchill

Thanks, Doubting Bro. I've heard those rumors, but know nothing beyond that. I do think changes are on their way; CO's arrangement has become highly unproductive, it's not cost-effective, and causes more problems that it's worth to WTS. I see a tendency to get rid of paperwork and administrative decisions. A BIG one to me is the recent change by which Reg Pionners are to be named by local elders.

That being said, WTS is famous for being extremely slow for changes (i.e. elimination of Book study, two magazines per month, elimination of Bible study reporting were Henschel-era ideas that we debated some 15 years ago, and they were iplemented just recently).

StAnn: You may (or may not) know that the book currently being studied has an "appendix" covering such 'important' topics as "How to treat a DF'd", "When is it ok to get a divorce", "Masturbation" (How would they let that go?), and the very VITAL and IMPORTANT TOPIC of "When should a sister cover her head". So in a few weeks there will be a book study devoted to that theme.

After some steps on the right direction I see WTS going back to stupid issues like those and imposing rules on things that are none of their business. Apparently Jaracz&Losche are on a rampage!

77

May 15th WT- " Wife's Dedication to Jehovah more Important than Marriage "

by flipper in

jw
friends

i wanted to make just a thread for this statement of mind control as it was very blatant .

in the may 15th witness only wt under the article "husbands, imitate christ's love !

" it states, " if you are a christian husband, remember that your wife is also your christian sister.

winstonchurchill

Marriage is a vow, and Baptism is a vow... Why does the WTS feel entitled to tell ME or MY WIFE or anybody what comes first?

Life is full of choices... Carrer, Spouse, Family, Kids, Marriage, Divorce, You name it! It's YOUR call, it's YOUR LIFE. If someone at some point feels that religious afilliation comes first, good for him (her)! With God it is FREEDOM OF CHOICE since day one (Adam & Eve, anyone?)

I for one, will pick my kids over ANYTHING. They come first, second and third. I'm a JW, a serving elder, was a CO, but the minute ANYTHING interferes with my kids well being, it's over.

Jesus did say he who chooses family over me...yada, yada. BUT THAT WAS JESUS talking not some bunch of old farts in a Brooklyn Office.

48

Have You Ever Walked Out Of a KH "Meeting"?

by african GB Member in

did you have enough of boasting, and decided to walk out?.

that's what happened to me during this week's bs about how to "treat the disfellowshipped"?.

i just picked up my bag and stormed out...... will i get called into the back room?.

winstonchurchill

"BTW, you don't know much about private reproof. Only df'ing offenses come under reproof, private or public."

Blondie seems to know a lot. I like that. I've always liked sisters that know as much or more than elders. To me it shows how hollow and superficial qualifications for elders can be. And how unfair the treatment to women is within JW's.They do all the work, and get treated as third class people.

I'm an elder (ex-CO, BTW) and I walk off meetings all the time. Just like last night with 'how to treat df'd".Same for SM, i Just go to restroom, walk the parking lot with my 3 years old, etc. I always find a reason and a way of skipping the torture of Book Study and SM. For The Watchtower I stay mainly because i enjoy some of the stupid comments made by stupid people so full of themselves.

And wait for next 'Appendix' Book study about women having to cover their heads... That is SO DEMEANING, that I can't believe it's taken seriously!

Newbie here (long time lurker)

WC

18

WHO WAS WATCHTOWER BEST LEADER?

by badboy in

jw
friends

russell?.

winstonchurchill

Define "Best"

Best for their growth and good for controlling everything?

In that case, hands down it was Knorr. He defined and established controls and limits on every little aspect of every members life, from shunning to reporting hours, from movies you could watch to sexual practices... everything. He was and still is the mastermind behind the every cult-like aspect within the organization.

Or Best for what is fair and just?

Then it would be Henschel. I knew him and he was evidently not too happy about a lot of things. He wasn't to much into control and going beyond 'what's written'. Think about it: during his brief tenure at the wheel (late 80's when Freddie was too sick, then all 90's when he was the president) all this took place:

- Some sins could be taken care of by two elders (No JC needed)
- 1914 generation was done away with. He didn't like this "chronology" stuff to much.
- Ok to College
- Blood fractions allowed
- Sustitutive service (in lieu of Military service) was OK
- Non-Baptized Publishers arrangement replaced the "Approved Person" stuff. made it easier on NBP to exit without being shunned.
- I know for a fact (I was a CO at the time) he fathered the idea of eliminating one meeting (he wanted to nix the book study), and two magazines per month. He also wanted to eliminate Bible studies reports (later done in 04 I think). And I believe (but can't be sure) that he was all for eliminating all hours reporting, but he never said it openly that I know.
- Most important, he ended the glorification of the GB and the President. He diluted power to the point that most JW's don't know who the president is now.

18

What constitutes adultery for the WTS?

by iknewit in

i was an elder many years and only sat in on one case of marital infedilty.

since there was a confession in this instance.

we didn't need to know anything about the "act" (and none of us really wanted to know).

winstonchurchill

Blondie is absolutely right. We went from "Homosexuality and Bestiality is not adultery" to "Spending the night in the same house with someone IS adultery". Talk about oscilating!

A few years ago I served on a Comitee, and the girl confessed she spent the night with her boyfriend, that they slept in the same house, in the same room and the same bed, but they didn't do it. Why did I believe her? Because she was not accused; she came to the elders out of her own initiative. Nobody would have ever found out. Why would she lie? After long sessions were the other two elders grilled her and made her cry, no confession came out, basically because there was nothing to confess.She hust felt bad for getting "to close to sinning".

Now, following the "strong circumstancial evidence" rule, there was basis for disfellowshipping, and since she wouldn't "confess", she was doomed.

I still don't know how I managed to convince those two gorillas that no action should be taken. My line of reasoning was that mitigating circumstances should have the same wieght as aggravating circumstances. And ultimately I told them that I could not see how we could DF a girl that voluntarily came to 'confess' that she shared the bed with her boyfriend, and that I would ask them to relieve me from serving in the comitee, but I would not participate in her being DF'd.

They settled for reproof (which I disagreed with, because in my eyes there was no sin). That was one of the many times I started to realize how silly all this sex-related rules are.