Posts by winstonchurchill

25

Any mores news / rumors on no COs come 2011 - (winston?)

by tresdecu in

jw
friends

i hate to beat a dead horse.

but just curious.

winstonchurchill a new poster on the board is a former longtime co, what is your take on this?.

winstonchurchill

The 2000 Corporate split was all Henschel. Yes, he was nearly dead by the time, but he was the absolute commander of that transition. Always bear in mind that WTS is extremely slow when it comes to implementing changes. I know for a fact that nixing one meeting, and having only two monthly magazines was Henschel's idea. Ditto for not resporting bible studies (he actually wanted to get rid of all reporting of time). Those changes happened after he died, but he had set that machine in motion long before.

Anyone who knew Henschel well, could see that this guy didn't care at all about power. I think he was a truly honest person who firmly believed in what he was doing; he was sickened by the big egos around him. He ended for good all the GB glorification, to the point were right now 80% of JWs don't even know their names (as opossed to 90's when even kids could recite them). I always thought it was shame he wasn't in charge for longer. He would have changed a lot of stuff. Jaracz and Losche hated his guts.

Gary: You're absolutely right about most CO's being incompetent. More than an opinion that is a fact -privately aknwoledged by big wigs at the service department-. One of them once told me that some CO's create more problems than what they solved. That makes plausible geting rid of them.

Jeff: Very interesting stuff. I never heard about the "ecclesiastical" hierarchy clause, but it makes a lot of sense. Probably that's how they finally bought the idea of jumping out the Corporation. They work backstage, in the dark while keeping control.

Yknot: CO's for dummies... not a bad idea. Could finally make a buck out of those years.

Abbagall: Thanks for making the point that not all CO's were a-holes. I like to think I wasn't that bad.

25

Any mores news / rumors on no COs come 2011 - (winston?)

by tresdecu in

jw
friends

i hate to beat a dead horse.

but just curious.

winstonchurchill a new poster on the board is a former longtime co, what is your take on this?.

winstonchurchill

"Remove liability from the corporate entity. It's the local congregations fault for making brother child molester a pioneer. It's not our fault - and we're not going to pay you a thing."

That could be a reason, shamus. But the WTS is still informed and the pioneer registered with them oficially.

I think that what you point to is a by-product of a wider thing, a bigger goal they have, i.e. downsizing, cuting expenses (you wouldn't believe how LOW contributions are lately), and de-centralizing. I think they'll keep on 'delegating' on local elders and congregations. That way they save, they become more cost-effcient, and - as you pointed- they get rid of a lot of liability.

25

Any mores news / rumors on no COs come 2011 - (winston?)

by tresdecu in

jw
friends

i hate to beat a dead horse.

but just curious.

winstonchurchill a new poster on the board is a former longtime co, what is your take on this?.

winstonchurchill

Well, I'm flattered! I have to say that I find it very funny that I (of all people!) am 'famous' within an 'apostate' website. If my congregation only knew!!!

Ok. I rush to clarify that the above was just a (lame) joke. I respect and appreciate all the brilliant people here, and I'm glad I joined.

Now BTTT, As I told Tredescu a few days ago, I really don't know. I have heard the rumors, but nothing about no more CO's.

The rumor is old, BTW, so that takes credibility from it. MY GUT tells me that some changes are on the way. And as Jeff says we shouldn't underestimate recent changes:

1) Moving out of Brooklyn (Believe me, it's gonna happen). Mayor Bloomberg (and half Brooklyn) wants them out! And you can avoid death thru resurrection, but Taxes? I don't think so. GOV. Patterson is traying to tax SODAS! You think WTS is gonna get away from property taxes?

2) Drastic Downsizing, and simplification. Reduction of reports, meetings, magazines. A huge, unprecedented, unthinkable move towards the internet for Congregation stuff (You know, reports, contributions, Music, dramas, magazines and books now downloadable. Even forms and Public Talk Outlines are downloadable, with the necessary access privileges (Before you ask, NO, I won't give you my access, LOL). I went to the 117 Adams Factory Two weeks ago, and is a ghost town with a bunch of old folks. That's not a Factory; more like St. Peter's waiting room.

3) PO title nixed, while getting more training (Patterson school). Why Patterson? Why bother so much? We're hitting May and no word on local elder's school. It was due this year. Not doing it anymore?

4) A biggie to me: Reg. Pioneers to be directly named by local elders. It is the very first time EVER that a named privileged is not in society's/CO's hands. I still wonder why.

SO , I really hate not being up to your expectations guys, but I don't know a lot. I'll see if my conections tell me something.

IMHO, The CO arrangement is just dying. Most bros just hate the visits. The magic and the charisma is gone. It's just not doing it anymore, and the cost and liabilities are big for the WTS. There's also the huge "relay" problem: WHERE are they going to get new CO's, as the older ones die, leave, get sick, etc.? Those of us who are active and involved: How many young elders willing and able to be CO's do you know? Not a lot, uh?

Same goes for assemblies: People just CAN'T TAKE 'EM anymore. They probably will have to reduce assemby days or something like that.

And to all of you, thanks for your kind words. I wish some of my JW friends could enjoy this site. Who knows, maybe they are.

69

Are You Surprised That Some "Intelligent" People Still Are Witnesses?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i know some very sharp men and women that remain as jws and that perplexes me at times.

i even know of a jw whose daughter got molested by her jw ministerial servant uncle and she still believes this is the "truth", even though she took her family member to court and won!.

i don't get it..

winstonchurchill

As an active JW, and liking to think of myself as kind of "Intelligent", I'm not surpised at all.

I could make the same case for almost any group ("How can he be so intelligent and be a Republican!"; "How can an Intelligent person believe in UFO's", etc.)

What DOES SURPRISE ME is Intelligent, smart and well informed JWs that are Zealots, that live for nothing else but for the org. Every smart JW I know, when I get to know them well, you see there's some sort of deprecating attitude towards aspects of the org. The more intimate you become, the more you see, that deep down they are not buying the whole thing. Being a JW becomes secondary.

Human nature is complicated, and we stay altough we know that there's something terribly wrong. These JWs end up being no different from those who are in many churches and confessions just out of habit, but it has little effect on our everyday life.

This may sound (and be) very cynical, but it's the truth.

32

Is it safe to say that woman tend to overanalyze relationships?

by asilentone in

winstonchurchill

It might be true, but that doesn't mean it is safe to say it.

19

Counting Time: Is it Scriptural?

by cameo-d in

what is the purpose of punching jehovah's timecard?.

doesn't wt psychologically imply that jehovah "owes" them paradise because they have "worked" for it?.

it seems there is a scripture somewhere about "love does not keep an accounting".. perhaps one of you can find the scriptural incidence.. .

winstonchurchill

No, It is NOT!

In the late 90's Henschel wanted to nix the whole reporting thing.

As BLONDIE points, WTS base this on scriptures that show that they counted how many were fed, how many were baptized, etc.

However:

- In those accounts data is not statistically or even numerically accurate. "5,000 men were fed, plus women and children"; so, do we know actually how many were fed??? No. Same with "3,000 were baptized...". Not 5,001, not 2,999, but EXACTLY 3,000, 4,000, 5,000. No one more, no one less.Probably it was a very good, God-Inspired GUESS-TIMATE. Apparently people existed in chunks of Thousands.

My point is that those accounts in the scriptures are INFORMATIVE, NOT STATISTICAL. They are there to give you an VERY CLOSE IDEA, but not an exact number.

But here we have an "Organization" keeping tabs on MINUTES!!!! Literally! (Remember the 15 minutes arrangement for old folks).

There's Hours, Literature, Visits, Irregulars, Inactives, Pioneers, Quotas, Averages, Those under Average, and those Over Average, and WHOLE SYSTEM designed to control and keep a (very close) eye on people. As Gary pointed "Business Behavior"; may I add, a leftover form KNORR's obsession with Data as Statistics.

And take it from me (Serving Elder, ex-CO): 80% of publishers just make up a figure at the moment of filling their reports. an probably half of those don't even try to be accurate, they just throw a figure low enough to be believable, yet high enough to keep elders out of their hair.

32

Convention-Assembly CONTRIBUTIONS, Elder Experience Required

by V in

do you have experience as an elder and the contribution arrangement for assemblies or conventions?

an upcoming watchtower comments video will be exposing the resolution arrangement that makes this a cash-cow for the society.. i am particularly interested in recent experience, including countries other than the us.. let's get our facts straight and explain the ever-present "deficit" once and for all.. v. [email protected] .

winstonchurchill

This is how it works.

Assembly hall comittee prepares a yearly budget. Then divide the total amount by the sum of all publishers assigned to use such hall. This gives them a per-publisher-rate. When a Circuit comes to have an assembly, they have to pay their quota. It's like a pro-rated rent.

Now, the circuit make al ist of aaaaaaaall expenses: Hall quota, CO Expenses, DO expenses, Guest speaker's expenses (air fare, etc.), office supplies, etc. BEAR IN MIND that all these are ESTIMATES, as this is before the assembly even starts. As you would expect they INFLATE those estimates. So the assembly begins with a HUGE amount for estimated EXPENSES, and of course no contributions (The assembly has not even started!).

A well known fact is that attendants tend to give their contributions at THE END of the Assembly; but the FINANCIAL REPORT is prepared and read from the stage SUNDAY MORNING, with Saturday afternoon data. So what you get here is HUGE EXPENSES v. almost no contributions. Not surprisingly, THERE IS ALWAYS A DEFICIT.

But come Sunday afternoon, Contributions POUR IN, expenses get adjusted to realistic levels, and you have a HUGE SURPLUS that BROTHERS AND SISTERS NEVER GET TO KNOW. Since WTBS encourages them to do so, the elders resolve to send aaaaaall that money as a contribution to the 'worldwide work' a.k.a. 'The Society'. The funds are virtually depeleted so we start next assembly -again- with a deficit.

I am en alder, and was a CO for many years. I can witness that this is done on purpose. I have even witnessed how Assembly overseers intentionally left out contribution information to accomodate a higher deficit.

40

The Secret Pioneer School Manual

by WuzLovesDubs in

jw
friends

i saw one up close and personal because the jw annointed sister who was studying with me, told me that if i looked up every scripture in her (illegally gotten before the school started) pioneer school book and cut it out of old green nwts and pasted them in the margins, it would make her a stronger pioneer and jehovah would reward me.

and in the process i would learn where things were in the bible.. gosh what an incredible honor i was blessed with!

you know i did it..i didnt know a damn thing.

winstonchurchill

Thanks, Tresdecu!

SuspiciousMinds:

Still an elder. I have good reasons to stay (not bitter at all). While not trying to make a "change from the inside", I know I can make a difference for those around me. I'm deemed 'liberal' by most; some like it (one of them calls me 'the only voice of reason here'), some frown upon me, especially the old school people. But my ex-co condition keeps them from confronting me.

I will compose my story and eventually post something here.

Sir82:True, but if you try to make a point to a JW form the book, the minute the JW sees a non-elder with that book in his hands, he'll probably run like hell!!!

40

The Secret Pioneer School Manual

by WuzLovesDubs in

jw
friends

i saw one up close and personal because the jw annointed sister who was studying with me, told me that if i looked up every scripture in her (illegally gotten before the school started) pioneer school book and cut it out of old green nwts and pasted them in the margins, it would make her a stronger pioneer and jehovah would reward me.

and in the process i would learn where things were in the bible.. gosh what an incredible honor i was blessed with!

you know i did it..i didnt know a damn thing.

winstonchurchill

"

winstonchurchill,

If you were really devious,"

Sir82, As i mentioned in a previous post, I kept some Flock books when I stepped down as a CO, and have them at home (like 5 or 6). I guess that make sme potentially devious.

In any case, that book is on the internet, so no big deal. Only 'they' think it's secret

40

The Secret Pioneer School Manual

by WuzLovesDubs in

jw
friends

i saw one up close and personal because the jw annointed sister who was studying with me, told me that if i looked up every scripture in her (illegally gotten before the school started) pioneer school book and cut it out of old green nwts and pasted them in the margins, it would make her a stronger pioneer and jehovah would reward me.

and in the process i would learn where things were in the bible.. gosh what an incredible honor i was blessed with!

you know i did it..i didnt know a damn thing.

winstonchurchill

"Now when an elder steps down or is removed, then they demand the elder manual back immediately."

That's right. 'Turning in the book' has become symbolic of stepping down as an elder. If removed, they demand it on the spot.

That's why I carry mine in my briefcase all the time, and I have reached for it a couple of times offering to resign if they keep giving me a hard time. Last time I did it it was to the CO, which really made him take a dump; he wasn't expecting it!

The "Pioneer" book ha snot made it's way to the internet simply beacuse is 200+ pages Our Kingdom Ministry... really boring!