Highly intelligent people are actually better than others of less intelligence at deceiving themselves. They are more skilled at building complex and convincing (to them) arguments as to why what is clearly a ridiculous scenario is believable. When you couple that ability with time and emotional investment in that scenario, you get a very potent, tenacious mind set. My father is a great example of this. Although not well-educated--formally, that is--he is one of the most well-read and intelligent people I know. He's in his late 70's and has a memory that honestly puts mine to shame. His reading comprehension rivals that of folks with post graduate degrees. Yet he is a "company man" when it comes to the WT, lock stock and barrel. He can defend anything that they do and will do so, right to the death.
Cadellin
JoinedPosts by Cadellin
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Rolf Furuli
by inbetween inmy experience with jw so far taught me, that among them are all kind of personalities, with their particular reason for joining or staying in a religion (cult) like jw.. you find those with mental problems, those born in, who dont know any better, those with serious problems handling life (drug, alcohol, porn addic, who need strict rules to function).. but there are also quit normal people, who manage their life failry good, they often just accept anything of the org on a superficial basis, without giving too much thought, and going more or less through the motions.. then there are those, who really are deep thinkers, often with higher education.
besides their belief they take interest in things like quantum theories, history, even philosophy to a point etc..... however, they do not use their sharpe mind when it comes to examining their own religion.
i can in the meantime even understand this, because mostly they have emotional reasons as well to be a jw, and anything contradicting they put under "cognitive dissonance", and just dont think about it.. however, what puzzles me most, is when some of them, being exposed to apostate ideas, still use all their ability and skills to defend clearly ridiculous positions.. personally i also like to scrutinize things, i tried the same with some doctrine, particularly blood teachings, and could not find a solution, thinking it was my lack of insight.
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Stressful Session with Uber-Zealous Parents--The Mermaid needs a hug!
by Cadellin inokay, for those of you who don't know, i was raised jw by really great though uber-zealous parents.
i'm now an adult and have been inactive for about two years due a bunch of reasons, the primary one (or at least the one that got the ball rolling) being the pathological intellectual dishonesty of the wt in how it handles secular quotes and citations.
anyway, my parents are aware of all that and have left the issue alone for about the last year.
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Cadellin
You guys are awesome!!! ((((((((((((ALL OF YOU IN ONE GROUP HUG))))))))))))))
Flipper: Brilliant suggestion. Yes, that's what I'll do. I don't want to give them pain, nor do I want to do this to myself again either. Things have been really good b/w us and hopefully they can continue.
Oh, boy, this forum is so incredibly helpful for moments (days) like this. You guys ALL rock!
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Stressful Session with Uber-Zealous Parents--The Mermaid needs a hug!
by Cadellin inokay, for those of you who don't know, i was raised jw by really great though uber-zealous parents.
i'm now an adult and have been inactive for about two years due a bunch of reasons, the primary one (or at least the one that got the ball rolling) being the pathological intellectual dishonesty of the wt in how it handles secular quotes and citations.
anyway, my parents are aware of all that and have left the issue alone for about the last year.
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Cadellin
Thank you, Free! Just seeing all those parantheses is making me feel better. You know, I never thought about the stupid WT study this week but by gum, I think you've hit the nail on the head. Oh, God!!
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Stressful Session with Uber-Zealous Parents--The Mermaid needs a hug!
by Cadellin inokay, for those of you who don't know, i was raised jw by really great though uber-zealous parents.
i'm now an adult and have been inactive for about two years due a bunch of reasons, the primary one (or at least the one that got the ball rolling) being the pathological intellectual dishonesty of the wt in how it handles secular quotes and citations.
anyway, my parents are aware of all that and have left the issue alone for about the last year.
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Cadellin
Okay, for those of you who don't know, I was raised JW by really great though uber-zealous parents. I'm now an adult and have been inactive for about two years due a bunch of reasons, the primary one (or at least the one that got the ball rolling) being the pathological intellectual dishonesty of the WT in how it handles secular quotes and citations. Anyway, my parents are aware of all that and have left the issue alone for about the last year. Today they were over for lunch and, once we were alone, up it came. Have I reconciled my issues? Where do I stand? Etc.
I'd almost forgot how f*cking hard all this is. Compared to many of you, my fade has been pretty easy, mostly under the radar, shielded by my elder husband who has run interference for me (which is another story). But this time, my parents (who are in their 70's), in particular my father, really laid on the emotion. What hope do I have? What am I doing to my child? Where am I headed? Why can't I just focus on all the good things about the organization? I explained (again) how I got to this point, provided them with an example of the kind of intellectual dishonesty that I find so disturbing (latest creation brochure, p. 23, first full para), stressed that this was just one of many examples and how, of more importance, was what it was symptomatic of.
My father: There's still so much we don't know about the nature of life and the universe.
My response: Yes, but just because we don't know everything doesn't mean we don't know anything. Depending on the field of study, there are many, many things that are known with a high enough degree of certainty to make them facts.
My father: The main reason evolution is false is because it disagrees wtih the Bible's account of creation.
My response: The degree of logic missing from that statement is staggering. Do you even listen to yourself? If that's not the king of logical fallacies I don't know what is. Actually I didn't say that, but I thought it. But to hear such a tautology coming from someone who truly is capable of highly organized, logical thought was really disturbing; it underscored the fundamental epistimology (is that spelled right? It doesn't look right) of Witnesses--anything knowable is known through the lens of scripture. Period. And I just don't agree with that particular stance anymore. One of the things that my father kept coming back to was how I'd been tainted by university. The funny thing is, a bit later, after they'd left (and the aspirin started to kick in) I realized he was right. I have been "tainted" by a rigorous post-secondary education in reading comprehension and critical thinking. I do have a broader world view. I can spot the rhetorical canards and logical fallacies permeating the WT's writings, and I actually expect them to be accountable (this was another thing I brought up--accountability).
And then my dear father pulls out the ad hominen like crazy. Did I know that I sounded just like an apostate? What right did I have to expect the WT to comply to my own (tainted) academic standards? My example might seem off to an academic but those weren't the editorial standards the WT was required to adhere to. Did I know that there were many Ph.D.s in the "truth" who had no problem with this? Was I aware of how I had been tainted by the university atmosphere (see preceding para)? (Kind of a contradiction of the preceding query, but I didn't point that out)
Anyway, it still left me feeling kind of lousy. So what do I do? My mother suggests "locking all my doubts in a room and just carrying on with Jehovah's organization, being part of the brotherhood and enjoying all the good things that the spiritual paradise offers." My repl: "Yeah, but my conscience won't allow me to stand at someone's door and tell them that the human race has only been here for 6,000 years/we're in the time of the end and things have never been worse for the human race/ Noah's flood was for real/[fill in falsity of your choice]" She didn't have much to say in reply but it didn't matter b/c my father did most of the talking.
One of the worse points was near the end, where he said, "If you're right then mum's and my lives have been for mothing. We have nothing to look forward do and it's all been a waste." Yikes. There's no comeback for that. The best I could do was, "No, you've had a wonderful, happy, healthy life surrounded by people you love and who love you."
After something like this, I feel like saying, screw it, I'll just go quiet, go back and go along. But I can't "un-know." And ultimately, I have to be able to look myself in the eye at the end of the day (in a mirror, of course, otherwise it would be difficult and painful). I actually said that, but of course, that was translated into "its all about you (me)," I'm the focus of my spiritual wanderings and I need to just get humble and things would be fine.
Blech. I need a hug.
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School for Congregation Elders
by C.O.B.E.Beef ini attended the school late last year, and it was an emotional and mental rollercoaster for me.
i was already divided in my heart to say the least.
one of the instructors stayed in my home for the week, and my family genuinely enjoyed his company.
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Cadellin
Kobe Beef (great name!): Wow. First, thank you for sharing this. You are clearly an intelligent and articulate guy and a critical thinker to boot. It's amazing that the WTS has the gall to demonize the Catholic Church for their hierarchy when they know damn well their own hierarchy is alive and well. I'm interested in knowing more about what you'll do with this final nail in the coffin--when and if you're comfortable talking about it.
Has any other elder/former elder seen the same hierarchial chart written out so explicitly on the board? I'd be curious to know if this is an official part of the curriculum or just the brain wave of one particular instructor -- having it written out like that, not the hierarchy itself which we all know is a reality...
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At the age of 48 I just graduated with my BA degree from college and I am on top of the world
by booker-t ini thought i would never get my college degree from a university in this century at the age of 48 but i did it and graduated with an "a-" average.
i did this all the while working a full time job and going to school full time.
it can be done and now i love school to death.
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Cadellin
Yee-haw!!! Good for you!!! I just got my MA at the ripe ole age of 46 and it was so worth it. You're never too old!!
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WT Nov. 1, 2011 (public) - When Was Ancient Jerusalem Destroyed - Part 2
by AnnOMaly inout now.. yes, yes, yessssss!
on p. 26-27 they talk about how the lunar positions on vat 4956 fit 588/7 bce!!!.
"clearly, much of the astronomical data in vat 4956 fits the year 588 b.c.e.
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Cadellin
Alleymom, you rock! Thanks so much! And thanks to all of you who are working to expose this canard...
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Does mankind need religon to have morality?
by highdose inan arguement i've encountered recently is: god tells us right from wrong.
if you don't have a reason to do right instead of wrong then no one will have any morals.. i disagree with this entirely of course.
what kind of morality is it when you are only doing what is right out of fear of being punished for doing what is wrong?.
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Cadellin
I think this is a hugely important topic. I just recently read (well, listened to--audiobook) Sam Harris's The Moral Landscape, which asserts that science can (and should) be the basis for morality or ethics. Harris bases his claim on the idea that there is such a thing as human well-being, and that it can be produced or destroyed through various ways of living. His definition of well-being is basically a state of emotional, mental and physical health. Because "health" can mean different things to different people, he describe morality as a landscape with multiple peaks and valleys, the peaks being different means to the same goal of well-being, the valleys being really bad states (poverty, disease, repression, abuse, fear, malnutrition, etc.)
If we can agree that well-being is possible in humans, then, Harris asserts, we should also be able to agree that certain practices can either increase well-being or decrease it, and that that can be quantified, measured. He uses the extreme example of the enforcement of the burqa in certain Moslem communities, positing that locking women in a sack is a practice that potentially decreases well-being, particularly as the rationale for doing so lies in certain deprecatory beliefs about females in general. If well-being is a fundamental human goal (and he puts a lot of emphasis on mental well-being or, I should say, positive states of consciousness) and the well-being of conscious creatures is the ultimate aim in everything we do (and he's not totally homocentric in this), then science SHOULD be very concerned with explicating those conditions and practices which enhance well-being, and equally strident in opposing those practices which lead to "valleys."
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November 15 WT on jw.org
by Gayle inugh,,.
had article of disabled woman,,she had offer of marriage by a fellow disabled man, considered ,but not a jw so will wait till new world when can leap and run and be sound of health.
poor dear.. another article about "temporary residents" to subsist and work for suffiencies as "the days are numbered" and then can have a beautiful house.
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Cadellin
Just ran through it quickly and noticed a couple of other interesting things:
--High ed: The statement in the study artcle on "Temporary Residents" that says "Vigilant Christians refrain from using the world to the full when it comes to higher education" (or something like that), is about as close to making a rule on higher ed as I've seen. I don't think they could put it any stronger without it actually becoming a rule. I would hazard a guess that the economic downturn globally is sending JWs back to school and parents are probably telling teenagers to go to college right out of high school, given that employment among teens is around 50% in many areas, even here in the US. The GB is cracking down on this, "evidently," yet I would be curious as to what they think the average 18 year old JW fresh out of the hs would actually be able to do for a job??? Oh, that's right--Jehovah will provide. I forgot.
--The article on preaching to me was also noteworthy. I can't remember ever seeing an entire study article specifically instructing JWs to go after men as a group. Clearly, the gender imbalance is reaching crisis proportions in many places. Plus, I wonder if anyone actually stops and thinks: Don't JWs teach that Jehovah draws right-hearted persons to him? That angels are directing sheep-like ones to the "Truth"? If that's the case, why the heck isn't God drawing more men? Why aren't angels seeking out the sheepish men?
--The QFR on the discrepancy in times of impalement b/w Mark and John contains no real explanation and so the article ends somewhat lamely: "Although sufficent Scriptural information is not available to explain the difference, we can trust the Gospel accounts." This is emblematic of the whole WT stance toward the Bible--that belief in it is a matter of faith and not of logic or any kind of internal or external evidence. It doesn't really matter what anomalies or fallacies you might uncover, it is a priori the Word of God and therefore infallible.
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When Was Ancient Jerusalem Destroyed? Why It Matters - What the Evidence Shows
by wannabefree inobviously 607 is a problem, watchower coming out full forces on this one in the latest public edition.. http://download.jw.org/files/media_magazines/wp_e_20111001.pdf.
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Cadellin
YOU GUYS ARE THE BEST! Ann-o-maly, VM44, wannabefree and everyone else who posted links or explanatory info here, thank you!
In particular, the dishonesty regarding the Christopher Walker quote is stunning. It's a replication of the same kind of intellectual dishonesty and quote mining that the old Creation book is full of (not to mention the newer brochures). Its the same old thing that these bastards KNOW has stumbled people badly. On the other hand, it's also the stuff of wake-up calls. THe challenge is to get JWs to see through this nefarious game.