Posts by Cadellin

30

Impact on the receiving end of "What the Bible Really Teaches"

by kepler in

several years ago my fiance had a traumatic experience and decided to return to being a jw.. .

as a result she insisted that we read "what the bible really teaches".

then later i agreed to take instruction with house visits by an elder and his associates on weekends with the same purpose.. .

Cadellin

Kepler:

Your questions are all good and legitimate. You have correctly noted that scriptures are used to support pre-existing doctrine, not the other way around, as supposedly Charles Russell sought to understand them. I was raised a good JW and wondered myself about the clear and obvious discrepancy b/w how JWs view the fulfillment of prophecy re Babylon's destruction and the actual, historical events. I believe that one way around this problem is that they claim that Bablylon "fell" from a spiritual standpoint when the Israelites were freed and able to return to Jerusalem. That is, it was a spiritual/metaphoric "destruction" in that Babylon no longer had dominion over God's people. Of course, that completely misses the point that the prophecies unquestionably pertain to a sudden and very violent overthrow--old men, young, virgins and babies all being run through with the sword, etc.--and that such violence would be at the hands of the Medes.

By all means, assemble your questions and send them in to the WT. And please keep us informed as to the response. My prediction is that it will be several months b/f you hear back and then, at best, you will get a response patchworked from various WT articles of varying age, glossing over your central concerns and focusing on how wonderful JWs are and how amazing the preaching work is and how incredible the hope of the new world will be.

Still I could be wrong. But please, share it with us. And good luck!

51

Attended 2-Day Circuit Assembly--Highlights

by Cadellin in

since my spouse is an active elder, i accompany him to sads, cas and das, at least for the time being.

anyway, i thought i'd share some of the more odd/disturbing bits from the latest "sanctify god's name" ca.

there wasn't anything particularly new but the tone toward porn, higher ed, bad assoc, "habitual" murmuring and harmful gossip is definitely hardening, as are the cautions against social networking.

Cadellin

Billy: "Hardening" attitude toward porn--ha!

DoC: Our DO is a short little twerp with a rather comical vocal intonation. That's all I can say b/c I need to keep a low profile. But, yeah, I thought the "kidnapper" analogy was a bit over the top. The ego allusion was also rather mystifying.

Why the hell would any "apostate" want to entrap, kidnap or otherwise gather "followers"? The fact of the matter, based on reading this board, is that most of us just want to get on with living our lives, making up for the time lost w/this high-control religion. I can't imagine anything worse than to have "disciples" tagging along behind me like a string of mini-me's or wanna-bes. Yikes.

Yet, because that is how the NT presents specific apostates in the first century--and clearly Paul was referring to the numerous schisms that existed within Christianity--the WT cannot conceive of modern-day "apostates" being any different. If they were supposedly like that in Paul's day (never mind that Paul was referring to specific situations), then, by gum, they must be exactly the same today!! In all their verbage about "apostates," there's never any contemplation that maybe they just want to live ordinary lives and--some of them--maybe would like to get their family to wake up too. But that's hardly "kidnapping" or collecting disciples.

Yeesh.

51

Attended 2-Day Circuit Assembly--Highlights

by Cadellin in

since my spouse is an active elder, i accompany him to sads, cas and das, at least for the time being.

anyway, i thought i'd share some of the more odd/disturbing bits from the latest "sanctify god's name" ca.

there wasn't anything particularly new but the tone toward porn, higher ed, bad assoc, "habitual" murmuring and harmful gossip is definitely hardening, as are the cautions against social networking.

Cadellin

Since my spouse is an active elder, I accompany him to SADs, CAs and DAs, at least for the time being. Anyway, I thought I'd share some of the more odd/disturbing bits from the latest "Sanctify God's Name" CA. There wasn't anything particularly new but the tone toward porn, higher ed, bad assoc, "habitual" murmuring and harmful gossip is definitely hardening, as are the cautions against social networking.

One demo that was particularly telling was a monologue by a brother who'd just come home from work all stressed out. He sits down at a table and starts looking through the latest mags, all the while talking to himself. The upshot was that he's doing "all he can" as far as service, cong., and supporting his family and he's tired (he sighed A LOT all the way through) but--wait for it--yup, you guessed it: He wants to DO MORE! He doesn't know how, though, because, as he says, "My plate is already full with spiritual things." OH WAIT--he has a few days' vacation coming to him. He can use those days to pioneer in April. If he does that and goes out all day Sat and Sun, then he can get his time in!! How refreshing that will be! The demo concludes w/him leaping to his feet to go tell his wife what their "new" schedule is going to be for the next month.

The emphasis is definitely on doing more--regardless of how much you're already doing. Yikes.

I didn't hear higher ed being likened to offering your child to Molech, as another poster mentioned, but there was a demo where one bro. says to another that he can't understand the overlapping gen. and it seems like the FDS is "putting Armaggedon off." The new explanation is so hard to understand! The "mature" brother says, "You're making it harder than it is. When Jesus used the term "generation," he EVIDENTLY meant the lives of those anointed living in 1914 would overlap with those anointed who would see the end." The "unsure" brother responds: "Oh, is that it? Well, that's not so hard." Or something to that effect (paraphrase). Duh!! The rhetorical strategy was pretty slick--divert attention away from the underlying, though unspoken question of "Why are they changing the meaning again?" to "Is it really that hard to understand?" Then present a simplified one-sentence summary of the new light, without bothering to spend even a moment on any kind of factual or Biblical evidence that might support such a ridiculous "definition" of generation.

Apostates were railed against by the DO who characterized them as "kidnappers" who are looking to kidnap those in the cong. I kid you not. They have a problem with ego--ego means using spirituality for your own benefit. (Makes no sense). So we need to shun apostates and cling to God's org because, after all, "What would you know about the Bible if not for God's organization?" (Direct quote). Double yikes.

Finally, about higher ed: The DO said: Some say we shouldn't be cautioning against pursuing higher education. And yet, it's not surprising that in lands where people receive higher education, belief in God is at an all-time low!"

No shit, Einstein!!! Think about it. Oops--that's exactly what they DON'T want.

11

My rambling story

by MsGrowingGirl20 in

i am 18...my mother has been studying the bible with jw's for over 20 years now.

she has never been baptised for various reasons.she wasn't married at the time to my abusive and drunkard father...when she started studying she got married to him--then she left him 4 years after.since then almost everywhere we moved mommy was approached by the jw's and she regularly had discussions with them .. when we bought our current home and the jw's appproached us 3 years ago,mommy was working day and night and so she told them to study with me.the next sunday we started going to meetings...all the meetings...i became a publisher in 4 months and was baptised 8 months after...i was told by everyone that i was progressing well...because of my mom's hectic work schedule ( single mother 4) we never had a close relationship so i immediately became really close to my study conductor...i was taught that religion and the people at the kh had to take precedence over any family members especially those who were a part of the world..from then on i never went to any family gatherings,concerts and i began to 'look down' on my mother.after all her heart condition wasn't right--why wasn't she baptised?

our relationship plunged---i even told her that i wanted to leave this house...she knew that i felt closer to my study conductor and so she tried to start back her study and get baptised....again she was dating someone and contemplating marriage with him but my study conductor kept on drilling into her head 'marry only in the lord'.

Cadellin

Msgrowinggirl: Welcome!

Hang in there--you're clearly smart and you're taking the time to inform yourself. THis site is a great place to learn about similar experiences. And you'll find all the support you need. Let me just say, your instincts were right all along. Isn't that nice to know? I hope you can patch things up w/your mom and other loved ones. Keep us posted as things proceed.

19

Possible new human species found in China

by botchtowersociety in

http://www.livescience.com/19039-human-species-china-cave.html.

mysterious chinese fossils may be new human species.

mysterious fossils of what may be a previously unknown type of human have been uncovered in caves in china, ones that possess a highly unusual mix of bygone and modern human features, scientists reveal.. surprisingly, the fossils are only between 11,500 and 14,500 years old.

Cadellin

Thanks for the link--looks fascinating. Adds more evidence that the hominid lineage is more of a bushy vine than a unilinear, vertical tree.

73

Want honest answers

by independenthinker in

i've wanted to make this account for the past 2 weeks, but ive been afraid that ill get caught by posting.

do they check this site?.

im 18 years old,baptized at 14. really my problems started a few weeks ago.

Cadellin

Wannabefree makes an important point. This seems to be the nature of large corporations. After a time, esp. after they acquire power and a corporate "brand" or identity, they cease being a means to an end and start being the end in and of themselves.

You might want to try analysing WT study articles and swapping "God's Organization" for "Jehovah" or "God" and visa versa (in your mind, of course) and see how the sentences basically don't change meaning.

73

Want honest answers

by independenthinker in

i've wanted to make this account for the past 2 weeks, but ive been afraid that ill get caught by posting.

do they check this site?.

im 18 years old,baptized at 14. really my problems started a few weeks ago.

Cadellin

Independentthinker:

Welcome! First, it will be okay...eventually. Probably not tomorrow or the next day, though. It's kind of like when Neo wakes up in the pod in the first Matrix and he's naked and helpless. Well, I'm sure you're not naked and helpless, except maybe a little emotionally after discoving the truth about the "truth." But as I said, it will be okay eventually, as long as you keep on investigating and learning and questioning. You've been given some great advice already, but I'll just second the advice to hone your critical thinking skills, whether it's analysing the WT or anything you read on the Internet, including this site. I would say that most of what I've read on this site jibes with my own life experience (raised a JW and gradually faded in my late 30's/early 40's) but not everything.

When I was going through exactly what you're going through--wondering who's lying to me and who's telling the truth--I approached it this way: If our interpretation of the Bible is correct, then what else should also be true? IOO, what are the implications of a particular belief?

For example, if we REALLY ARE living in the worst possible time for humanity, at a time when Matt 24 is coming true and famine, pestilence, warfare and earthquakes are all worse than at any other time in history--if that really is where we are and, in fact, where we've been for nearly a century--then what should we see in terms of effects on population demographics? Well, it's been proven that factors like these have a negative impact on population growth--that is, populations SHRINK when hit w/multiple whammies over a long period of time. So, we should see some kind of population decrease, right? What do we see? For the last century, earth's population has exploded. Not only that, people are living longer than ever, even in third world countries. So what accounts for this? Is famine worse now/in the last century than in any other time? Disease? Crime and violence? This is where I started researching these issues on my own and discovering that contrary to what the WT has been saying, the human race is actually in a period of unparalleled peace and prosperity. It's all relative, of course--yes, there's still famine, disease and warfare but IN COMPARISON TO THE PAST, it's on a much smaller and more controlled scale.

This is the kind of independent research you might want to do. You can do it with other questions like "If Noah's flood were literally true, what kind of evidence would we see?" "If the human family were really only 6,000 years old, what would that mean?"

I'll stop now. You're on the right track. Don't give up. And don't feel pressured to suddenly stop going to all meetings or radically change your routine. In fact, it might be better to just stick to your regular schedule, maybe skip service a bit more, and just read, read, read. Take your time. You've got plenty!!!

45

It CAN'T go on much longer

by jean-luc picard in

jw
friends

so thats what my mum told me today.

i've learned to hold my tongue but i was thinking,.

"why can't it?

Cadellin

What's particularly obnoxious about this doctrine is how they fan the flames of urgency via official channels, like the District Convention of 2009, where the word "imminent" was used literally in every talk to describe Armaggedon's closeness. It had to have been emphasized in the manuscripts and outlines sent out by the WTBC, because every speaker mentioned it. So what does "imminent" mean?

Well, it's a great little weasel word that can be used to, as I said, reignite the urgency in the minds of the rank and file. At the same time, when this latest prophecy proves wrong (and that's what it was, a prophecy), the Society can retreat to the defense of "we never actually said when it was coming--we're just pointing out the 'season,'" which is their response whenever anyone attempts to point out their record of failed predictions. IOO, they like to have their "date" and eat it too. (Ok, not such a great play on words, but you get my meaning)

110

....And what if it IS the truth????

by MsGrowingGirl20 in

what next???

.

Cadellin

Love the Shaw quote.

110

....And what if it IS the truth????

by MsGrowingGirl20 in

what next???

.

Cadellin

Welcome, Growinggirl and Notreadytorun:

Great names, btw. Mr. Flipper just spoke words of wisdom. GG, when I was going through the same mental anquish that you are currently experiencing, I asked myself, "If the WT really is the truth, then what else would also have to be true?" IOO, what does it mean in the larger framework for the JWs to have the only "truth"?

Well, for one it means that virtually every avenue of known scientific knowledge is wrong. This includes the vast array of information gleaned from DNA, geology and fossils regarding the history of life on earth, the basic laws of physics governing radiometric decay, the astronomy revealing irregularities in the earth's orbit (causing the known pattern of ice ages), the analyses of ice core samples calibrated to other historical physical data such as volcanic eruptions. I could go on but I won't--Leolaia recently reposted a fantastic listing of science that would have be wrong if the literal flood were true and you should check that out.

So if all this science is flat-out, dead wrong, what does that mean? It means, for one, that we can't "know" anything based on our senses. We can't trust any particular picture of the physical reality governing the conditions of our existence--how life on this planet works--based on any tangible, quantifiable data, regardless of how much independent lines of evidence converge or how consistent such "laws" are over time. (Actually, it would mean that such "laws" ARENT consistent--the very same laws that the WT points to as evidence of a designer. IOO, if the WT's view of life is right, then all those supposedly consistent laws aren't consistent at all). "Knowledge" can't come through our physical senses. It's just not accurate. So where does that leave us?

Basically, it leaves us with no way of verifying reality. The WT claims that w/o the "Truth," we have no purpose in life, that we're twisting aimlessly in the wind. Well, w/o any way of verifying reality--even verifying the reality of Biblical prophecies, which necessarily means relying on some physical data or another--we're left twisting in an epistemological wind, at the mercy of anyone who says, "Believe me--I'm telling you the truth," whether that happens to be the WT or another Jim Jones.

Oh, this was way longer than I intended, but I hope it makes sense. Think about it. I sure have.