Posts by androb31

56

So...Assuming God exists, if he were on trial and you were the prosecutor, how would you present your case?

by androb31 in

feel free to skip the intro down to the actual purpose of the thread lol!!.

i'm a born in, 32 years in and almost 6 out.

i've been out of the jw's since october of 2008. i came out due to a variety of factors, blood, historical roots, false teachings etc... my older sister helped me out back in 2008 and i subsequently helped my brother exit and the 3 of us became "born again" christians.. i've been mostly lurking but occasionally posting on jwn for around 5 years.

androb31

Objectivetruth:

The issue is Many Ex-JW's maintain the Watchtower Teaching, that says once God Kills someone they are Dead Forever.

That is not a belief that I myself had after leaving the WT. Not to get into a doctrinal debate because that's not the point of this thread. I personally adhered to a trinitarian, orthodox position, immortal soul teaching that the soul ends up in one of 2 places. Heaven or hell. Pre OT lives were judged by works or faith in the coming messiah which determined your eternal destinination, post OT judged by faith in Christ = life or no faith = eternal damnation, period.

Regardless though. Lets say all those children are given a resurrection, to earth or heaven or wherever.

If I were a parent and I were to stand by watching, observing, while a sadistic sociopath tortures, torments, hurts, one or all of my children while they scream and beg for my help but I decide rather than stop it as quickly as I can, I will wait to see how much they can take before they stop asking for my help or lose hope. Then at the last minute let's say I decide to step in and either take them out (kill them, mercy kill) or put an end to the suffering just prior to the point of no return. Does that make my lack of action all better now just because all the while they were suffering, I knew I had a master plan to kill them or buy them off with all kinds of nice things so they will forget about what happened to them because of my inaction?

Would a rational person think of me as a person fit to be a parent based on the above example?

The True God resurrects all Humans, and gives them 1,000 years of life on an Earth that is ery different than the Earth that we now live on.

That's your personal take on the scriptures.

56

So...Assuming God exists, if he were on trial and you were the prosecutor, how would you present your case?

by androb31 in

feel free to skip the intro down to the actual purpose of the thread lol!!.

i'm a born in, 32 years in and almost 6 out.

i've been out of the jw's since october of 2008. i came out due to a variety of factors, blood, historical roots, false teachings etc... my older sister helped me out back in 2008 and i subsequently helped my brother exit and the 3 of us became "born again" christians.. i've been mostly lurking but occasionally posting on jwn for around 5 years.

androb31

Objectivetruth:

Some People on this Thread are complaining that God kills innocent Children & 1'000s of people at a time.. Others complain that God allows suffering to exist.. I have to ask, which is it?

When God Kills someone, doesn't that end their Suffering? In reality shouldn't we all wish that God would Kill us?

I don't want god to kill me. I enjoy life in spite of the difficulties. If I choose to resume my faith in god and the bible though, I would believe in the concept of eternal punishment in hell as that is what I read the scriptures as saying. If I stop believing in the bible or god and let's say it's all true?? Let's say I end up in hell because I weighed the existing evidence for god and found it lacking, because he refuses to prove he exists or my faith wasn't strong enough, then that's someone I would prefer not to have anything to do with or worship for that matter.

Cofty:

I say that those children were blessed to be taken by Yahweh..

Disgusting!

I agree with Cofty. Objectivetruth, why bring them into existence in the first place being Omnicient and knowing ahead what they were being born into, that he would have to perform a mercy killing to take them out of something he brought them into in the first place?

The questions keep piling up.

56

So...Assuming God exists, if he were on trial and you were the prosecutor, how would you present your case?

by androb31 in

feel free to skip the intro down to the actual purpose of the thread lol!!.

i'm a born in, 32 years in and almost 6 out.

i've been out of the jw's since october of 2008. i came out due to a variety of factors, blood, historical roots, false teachings etc... my older sister helped me out back in 2008 and i subsequently helped my brother exit and the 3 of us became "born again" christians.. i've been mostly lurking but occasionally posting on jwn for around 5 years.

androb31

Prologos:

There is the former Los Angeles PROSECUTOR that tackled that question,--and other related ones-- in his book 'Divinity of Doubt" Vincent Bugliosi, highly recommended.

I think I might just have to look into obtaining a copy. Thanks.

56

So...Assuming God exists, if he were on trial and you were the prosecutor, how would you present your case?

by androb31 in

feel free to skip the intro down to the actual purpose of the thread lol!!.

i'm a born in, 32 years in and almost 6 out.

i've been out of the jw's since october of 2008. i came out due to a variety of factors, blood, historical roots, false teachings etc... my older sister helped me out back in 2008 and i subsequently helped my brother exit and the 3 of us became "born again" christians.. i've been mostly lurking but occasionally posting on jwn for around 5 years.

androb31

Objectivetruth:

Sounds good. I look forward to your answers.

If you have ceased to pray, please consider resuming prayer.. But keep in mind, prayers that are not pure, or that are accusitory towards Yahweh are not answered.. Yahweh doesn't answer prayers that are not asked without faith.. So if you don't have faith, you can Pray for Faith.. This is the first step.. If you don't have faith that Yahweh will give you Faith still Pray.. His desire for you to come to know him is stronger then his not answering Prayers that lack faith.

One more question to throw in there:

If what you say above is the case regarding prayer then god doesn't really seem to want a person to approach him honestly with how they feel (angry, accusitory, hurt, lacking faith etc...). He would seem to only want people to approach him according to a prescribed method to avoid hurting gods feelings or so he can feel good about himself, that many will not be able to do since they are angry, accusitory, hurt, lacking faith.

Is god really that petty?

56

So...Assuming God exists, if he were on trial and you were the prosecutor, how would you present your case?

by androb31 in

feel free to skip the intro down to the actual purpose of the thread lol!!.

i'm a born in, 32 years in and almost 6 out.

i've been out of the jw's since october of 2008. i came out due to a variety of factors, blood, historical roots, false teachings etc... my older sister helped me out back in 2008 and i subsequently helped my brother exit and the 3 of us became "born again" christians.. i've been mostly lurking but occasionally posting on jwn for around 5 years.

androb31

Objectivetruth:

Or really anyone......

Can you address these contradictions mainly in gods character:

EX 20:5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me

DEU 24:16 The fathers shall not be put to death for the children, neither shall the children be put to death for the fathers: every man shall be put to death for his own sin.

ISA 14:21 Prepare slaughter for his children for the iniquity of their fathers; that they do not rise, nor possess the land, nor fill the face of the world with cities.

Does god punish children for their fathers sins? or doesn't he?

***********************

GEN 22:1 "And it came to pass after these things, that God did tempt Abraham."

LUKE 4:12 And Jesus answering said unto him, It is said, Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God.

JAMES 1:13"Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God; for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man."

Can god be tempted? If not, why the prohibition against tempting him? Does god tempt or test us? or doesn't he?

***********************

EX 20:5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me,

1 COR. 13:4 Love is patient and kind. Love is not jealous or boastful or proud

1 JOHN 4:8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love.

Is god jealous? Is god love? Is love jealous? How can god be love if love is not jealous if he is self admittedly jealous?

I'll stop there.

56

So...Assuming God exists, if he were on trial and you were the prosecutor, how would you present your case?

by androb31 in

feel free to skip the intro down to the actual purpose of the thread lol!!.

i'm a born in, 32 years in and almost 6 out.

i've been out of the jw's since october of 2008. i came out due to a variety of factors, blood, historical roots, false teachings etc... my older sister helped me out back in 2008 and i subsequently helped my brother exit and the 3 of us became "born again" christians.. i've been mostly lurking but occasionally posting on jwn for around 5 years.

androb31

Objectivetruth:

2 Hypothetical Questions he may have asked himself..

1. "When Yahweh, told my Forefather Noah, that he was bringing a deluge upon the Earth, to destroy all but 8 did he do it?

2. "When Yahweh, promised. Sarah and me a son, despite our old age. Did he fulfill his promise?"

The answer to both of these questions would be Yes.. There would have been 100's of other examples that Abraham could have mentally referenced as well.

Now.. Let's consider another hypothetical situation..

Let's say Yahweh had fulfilled 99 out of 100 Promises that he had made pre Abraham.. And the 1 promise that he did not fulfill, was justified because it would have meant death of a lot of Innocent people.

Could Abraham have COMPLETE trust in Yahweh? No, he could not he could only have 99% faith.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying God has made promises to certain of his servants that he absolutely had to fulfill in order to keep his word? Regardless of the collateral damage that would have to be inflicted?

Is god not all mighty and all knowing? Could he not make promises that would allow him to avoid mowing down countless lives in the process of keeping them?

A child with polio Lieng in the Dirt in South Africa, is a Disgusting thing.. But Humans only live 70-80 years.. 80 years of torment, pain and suffering is better than every living being in the universe ceasing to exist.. Do you agree?

Again, pretty much the same type of question as above. Did humans put god in the position where his hands were tied and the choice was either mass slaughter or the universe ceasing to exist? Did he not know how things would go before he set them in motion?

I'm not 100% convinced either for or against the existance of god at this point and I'm not asking rhetorically or sarcastically but would like to understand how you would explain this

56

So...Assuming God exists, if he were on trial and you were the prosecutor, how would you present your case?

by androb31 in

feel free to skip the intro down to the actual purpose of the thread lol!!.

i'm a born in, 32 years in and almost 6 out.

i've been out of the jw's since october of 2008. i came out due to a variety of factors, blood, historical roots, false teachings etc... my older sister helped me out back in 2008 and i subsequently helped my brother exit and the 3 of us became "born again" christians.. i've been mostly lurking but occasionally posting on jwn for around 5 years.

androb31

Ignoranceisbliss:

My question would be Why didn't you make it obvious that you exist? If there is a creator than he has every right to demand worship. But it's up to hiM to make his presence known. You can't expect people to know that your there.

I wanna take this a bit further actually.

One of the responses to this I've heard and even used myself is that "god cannot bear the presence of sin" therefore he does not reveal or show himself out of kindness to us.

So that being the case, the question I've really struggled with lately is this: Why did god subject the first 2 humans he created to guaranteed failure knowing they would fail his test and subject all who follow to sin, which god cannot bear?

This scripture seems to say exactly that:

Romans 8:20

NIV: For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope

NLT: Against its will, all creation was subjected to God's curse. But with eager hope,

NET: For the creation was subjected to futility--not willingly but because of God who subjected it--in hope

To me, that would be the equivalent of a parent purposely subjecting their own children to an unwinnable situation just to teach them a lesson, that really never needed to be taught.

I imagine it like this:

Say a parent drops their innocent, basically ignorant young child in the middle of a candy store. They spend ample time pointing out how delicious all the candy is, but make a point to extol the superiority, deliciousness, desirability of the best candy that sits smack dab in the middle of the store, surrounded by lights and fanfare. Threaten the child w/ something they have no concept of if they dare eat of the special candy in the middle of the store. The child is then subsequently left there alone with a known scandalous trickster, con artist, murdering liar who is totally bent on causing mayhem and suffering to the child. They basically have to fend for themselves and make the right choice, even though you already know they will not make the wise choice.

As punishment they then evict the young child from their safe home into a dangerous (especially for a child) world and hide from them from that day forward. By extension, any future offspring of the child, assuming they make it that far of course, will be subjected to toil, misery and grief for simply happening to be the offspring of the child who was tricked by a vastly superior, cunning enemy you knew was lurking in the candy store in the first place.

To add a further burden, it will be required for the offspring of the cursed child, who never met the parent in the first place to spend their life in service to the absentee, invisible so called parent who won't be bothered to even make an appearance, extolling their wonderful virtues and kindness for even letting them live and take place in the chess match (which they are pawns in) between the two vastly superior, much older and wiser grown ups. I mean afterall, they are the offspring of the evil, sinful special candy eater lol. All this under the threat of worse, even endless suffering, than they've already been subjected to for not blindly taking up the cause. In a nutshell.

SHEESH!!

56

So...Assuming God exists, if he were on trial and you were the prosecutor, how would you present your case?

by androb31 in

feel free to skip the intro down to the actual purpose of the thread lol!!.

i'm a born in, 32 years in and almost 6 out.

i've been out of the jw's since october of 2008. i came out due to a variety of factors, blood, historical roots, false teachings etc... my older sister helped me out back in 2008 and i subsequently helped my brother exit and the 3 of us became "born again" christians.. i've been mostly lurking but occasionally posting on jwn for around 5 years.

androb31

newhopeandhappiness:

Well i think i the case is one or lost on jury selection, so if if the jury was a mix of Jehovers Witnesses,Mormons, Born Agains ect i would concede no contest.

LOL!!

56

So...Assuming God exists, if he were on trial and you were the prosecutor, how would you present your case?

by androb31 in

feel free to skip the intro down to the actual purpose of the thread lol!!.

i'm a born in, 32 years in and almost 6 out.

i've been out of the jw's since october of 2008. i came out due to a variety of factors, blood, historical roots, false teachings etc... my older sister helped me out back in 2008 and i subsequently helped my brother exit and the 3 of us became "born again" christians.. i've been mostly lurking but occasionally posting on jwn for around 5 years.

androb31

OTWO:

Lesser courts have ruled against pet-owners for doing far less harm than Mr. God has done for humans.

Ouch!! I never thought of it that way. I gotta think on that for awhile.

56

So...Assuming God exists, if he were on trial and you were the prosecutor, how would you present your case?

by androb31 in

feel free to skip the intro down to the actual purpose of the thread lol!!.

i'm a born in, 32 years in and almost 6 out.

i've been out of the jw's since october of 2008. i came out due to a variety of factors, blood, historical roots, false teachings etc... my older sister helped me out back in 2008 and i subsequently helped my brother exit and the 3 of us became "born again" christians.. i've been mostly lurking but occasionally posting on jwn for around 5 years.

androb31

Cofty:

:Yes you're right, that is the standard response.
1 - If god wanted to stop a wicked nation from practising wicked things like child sacrifice, how does it make sense to specifically murder all the children?

2 - Yes a deity would have the right to take life away on a whim. But, the question is how god's actions compare with the claim that he is love.

My answers:

1. Personally, I'm stumped. These are both head scratchers lol.

As a believer I may have answered it something along these lines: He was teaching his people Israel by showing them how they would end up if they engaged in similar behaviours and how they would be dealt with by him if so.

2. Again, I'm stumped.

Similarly I may have answered this in the past like: We just don't see everything the way god does, his ways are not our ways. We just have to trust him even when we don't understand why he does what he does.

Ignoranceisbliss:

My question would be Why didn't you make it obvious that you exist? If there is a creator than he has every right to demand worship. But it's up to hiM to make his presence known. You can't expect people to know that your there.

Good point. Just one peice of irrefutable evidence is all I would personally need.

I know the pat biblical answer: "No man may see God and yet live", "You shall not test the lord your God" etc.......

That's just begs more questions though when I think about it. If this is what God expects us to abide by, then why did he give us rational thinking minds geared towards curiosity, a desire to search for knowlege and so forth. It seems like this type of question really makes god angry.