Posts by donuthole

18

Why do the JW's say miracles are from Beelzebub

by androb31 in

the jw's claim that modern day miracles (prophesying, healing, tongues) are from the devil.

the following is their reasoning why they believe this (from an article on the jw official website).

this is rather arbitrary when the cited scripture is read.

donuthole

@androb31

Yeah that was my experience. I was actually assigned a number 4 talk on the Holy Spirit shortly before my being DF'd. At the time I was really looking at the Bible with fresh eyes and it impacted me how little I knew about the Holy Spirit. What did we really know? When someone was sick or going through a trial we might pray for an "extra portion of the Holy Spirit" go to them -- but really what did we expect it to do? -- maybe give them strength to endure or something? After leaving the WT religion I learned more about the Holy Spirit. Not necessarily through study but through different experiences and such.

@chalam

I was looking at that verse you put from Matthew. I'm not going to argue that there aren't counterfeit miracles and also deceiving spirits. It does seem though that this verse is talking more about the character of the individual and not the legitimacy of the work done in Jesus' name. If a wicked man uses the name of Jesus to cast out a demon, well I think that speaks more for the power of Jesus' name than the quality of the individual using it. Another thing that comes into play here is the faith of the individual receiving the miracle. Their heart may be in a good place while the one "working" the miracle might be full of deceipt and wickedness.

18

Why do the JW's say miracles are from Beelzebub

by androb31 in

the jw's claim that modern day miracles (prophesying, healing, tongues) are from the devil.

the following is their reasoning why they believe this (from an article on the jw official website).

this is rather arbitrary when the cited scripture is read.

donuthole

Ok for starts that section of Corinthians does not mention healing (or exorcisms which is often coupled with healing in the Gospels). Those that Jesus sent out in the ministry healed and cast out demons on the basis of his name before they received the Holy Spirit.

As mentioned the section in Corinthians isn't talking about the completion of the Bible but rather the time of the ressurection when we see Christ "face-to-face". Right now we only have partial knowledge but then we have total knowledge. At that time there will be no need for prophecy for all is fulfilled. Even faith and hope do not remain for because when the thing hoped for and held in faith arrive there is no further need to hope and hold in faith.

The only thing that remains is love, God is love, and love is eternal.

The JW's claim to only "know in part", otherwise why the continual "new light". Yet at the same time they would dogmatically claim this scripture is fulfilled. Well if that which is perfect has arrived, why do they still know in part and prophecy in part??

The JW's have little understanding of the Holy Spirit. Honestly think back to your time in the religion, how much did the Holy Spirit impact you? Did you even have understand it? What was the Holy Spirit's part in a Christian's life?

There was a time even in the days of Rutherford where he taught that the Holy Spirit wasn't available anymore since it was only until Jesus arrived. He claimed to be guided by angels. (There are echoes among current Witness beliefs -- the idea that the Angels are directing the preaching work -- compare to how the Holy Spirit directed the preaching in the book of Acts.)

In this the scripture is fulfilled, "they have a form of godly devotion but prove false to its power." The JW religion has none of the power of the early Church. They even routinely deny the Holy Spirit.

13

What does it mean in Revelation where it talks about God's name, Jesus' name and the name of new Jerusalem being written on the foreheads of the conquerors/144,000?

by slimboyfat in

there is revelation 14:1. and i saw, and, look!

the lamb standing upon the mount zion, and with him a hundred and forty-four thousand having his name and the name of his father written on their foreheads.. did the author have in mind the tetragrammaton here?

revelation is rich with allusions to the ot and other jewish texts that obviously used and made reference to the divine name; in particular the law where the high priest wore a headband with the tetragrammaton inscribed must surely be the basis for this image.

donuthole

Take a look at Jeremiah 23:6; 33:16 -- the messiah and the city are both given the name "YHWH TSIDKENU" or Jehovah, our Righteousness.

I do believe that Jesus was given the name of Almighty God.

Hebrews tells that Jesus has inherited a name more excellent than angels. If you inherit something it must have previously belonged to someone else, in this case his Father.

Also look at John 17:12, "While I was with them, I protected them in your name that you have given me."

26

"Our dear Watchtower .... our precious magazine..."

by drwtsn32 in

jw
friends

i received this vomit-inducing email from a jw:.

i had the tonight show w/ conan o'brien playing in the background, at first i was shocked to hear what i heard, yet very happy to see what was being prominently displayed in public view for the entire world to see (as the show is syndicated internationally)!

yup, the study version of our dear watchtower with the words announcing jehovah's kingdom prominently on the front cover.

donuthole

I like how the e-mail is spun so that the JW was not actually watching the show, simply having it on the background, they were even SHOCKED by it --

How much you wanna bet they were watching the show?

72

A "My Book of Bible Stories" tale that I've always hated

by JimmyPage in

jw
friends

i've always hated story #53: "jepthah's promise".

i always felt sorry for the daughter who had to spend the rest of her days at the tabernacle because her father made a numb-nuts promise to god.

who did he think he was, making promises for other people?

donuthole

I know some Bible commentators try to water this down like the Watchtower and envision some sort of sacrificial service, like in a convent, but the most obvious reading is that she was killed.

This may seem strange but the whole book of Judges is strange. I think the key to understanding is taking note of this repeated phrase, "in those days there was no king in Israel: every man did that which was right in his own eyes."

The book of Judges is lots of people doing what they thought was best in their own eyes.

29

Were You Fearful of The Demons?

by minimus in

jw
friends

i don't know of a witness that wasn't!.

donuthole

Yes I was fearful of demons. I'm no longer fearful of them.

I would agree with Minimus that in JW eyes Satan and demons are often see as more real than Almighty God. They actively deny miracles and the Power of God yet at the same time believe the demons are capable of doing all this crazy stuff today.

I do believe in demons and have had some experience with that sort of thing. However I have come to learn that the Jesus gives believers authority over unclean spirits and that authority has not been rescinded. These spirits often play upon fears and lie and decieve and are full of bluff - much like a grade-school bully - but they must submit to Jesus' name. It is as simple as that.

We recently visited rural missouri and spent sometime in nature. Sometimes it is difficult to walk through the woods without picking up a few ticks. But once you discover them they are quite simple to extract.

23

What are your favorite rap albums of all time?

by JimmyPage in

jw
friends

okay, most of these are going to show my age.

notorious b.i.g.

"life after death".

donuthole

Gave up listening to rap when WT came down on it, but I listened to quite a bit. My favorite at the time was stuff like Tribe Called Quest - Low End Theory.

107

What would Christianity look like without Paul's writings?

by AK - Jeff in

jw
friends

a thowoff from ren's thread obviously.. i am firmly convinced that what is called christianity today - is actually just pauline theology.. if you removed all the portions of the nt that are attributed to paul, and actually accepted as primary the words of jesus and his direct followers - the worldwide movement would look far different doctrinally.

and as far as the fundy's go - they would be lost without the deep judgmentalism and rules oriented thinking of this writer [whomever he really was].. if ren's thread could go 15 pages and counting - why not this one?.

thoughts?.

donuthole

@allelsefails

I see that quite a bit where it is suggested that Paul didn't think his writings were inspired. He may not come right out and say, "my writings are inspired", but is there any doubt that he felt that he speaking the Word of God? He really believed the message he preached wasn't received from any man but from God. In fact, in his letters he is careful to note when his expressions are his own and not from Heaven.

107

What would Christianity look like without Paul's writings?

by AK - Jeff in

jw
friends

a thowoff from ren's thread obviously.. i am firmly convinced that what is called christianity today - is actually just pauline theology.. if you removed all the portions of the nt that are attributed to paul, and actually accepted as primary the words of jesus and his direct followers - the worldwide movement would look far different doctrinally.

and as far as the fundy's go - they would be lost without the deep judgmentalism and rules oriented thinking of this writer [whomever he really was].. if ren's thread could go 15 pages and counting - why not this one?.

thoughts?.

donuthole

If you look at the early Christian writings of the 2nd century you'll find that Paul's writings, while not ignored, are not given very much attention. In the 4th century Augustine brought them into focus, particularly Romans, with the preeminence of the doctrine of justification by faith. The protestant movement of Luther, Calvin, etc. was basically a revival of Augustinian Catholicism and Romans became the central book of the Bible, the lens by which all the whole of Scripture was understand, and the point by which the Christian faith revolved.

I think on some level Paul though is easier to understand than Jesus which may explain his appeal to the western mind. Paul is quite analytical, particularly in the book of Romans as he is constructing his argument piece by piece, answering objections, etc. Jesus on the other hand can be quite cryptic, teaching in parables and providing signs but never really "spelling it out", it is somewhat abstract.

My preference is not to abandon Paul because I think there is value in what he writes. However, I would rather focus on the teachings of Jesus.

42

Protesting and Demonstrating at District Convention

by jabberwock in

has anyone who has attended a district convention this year seen any protestors or demonstrators?.

have you ever protested or demonstrated or maybe even handed out literature at a convention or assembly?

what happened?

donuthole

Sometimes I'm tempted to demonstrate with an old school sandwich board reading "Religion is a Snare and a Racket" -- "Serve Christ the King"