Posts by donuthole

18

And Just Like That, FamilyRadio has....

by Yan Bibiyan in

jw
friends

....a new website landing page, without any mention whatsoever of the may 21 fiasco.. i guess the bible's guarantee was worth less than the warranty of a used car from a salvage yard..... their tv ad is still live on vimeo, although not in english.

(may 21, 2011 from family radio on vimeo.).

anyone involved with web design knows that this transition does not happen overnight - sure the redirects take a second to put in place but the whole new website was prepared in advance....so much for faith, huh?.

donuthole

BREAKING NEWS!

Camping said he had the right date but expected the wrong thing. The world was judged spiritually (invisibly) on May 21 and the physical judgment will come on Oct 21.

50

Why the stunning lack of accurate, historical evidence for Jesus Christ?

by nicolaou in

by no means a new topic for discussion but always worth a fresh airing .

i'd suggest that the 1st century was quite a well documented time.

we have lots of historical evidence for important people who actually existed.

donuthole

@PSacramento

The book "Jesus in the Talmud" is pretty interesting as it contains references to Jesus from theological opponents of the Christian movement. It even testifies to his miracles, though attributing to sorcery and the blasphemous use of the divine name.

53

Present some evidence for evolution...

by Spade in

there's no evidence that can't be overturned and exposed as deception in the scientific community.

jehovah's witnesses don't stonewall any new findings.

we have degree regarding adaptation.

donuthole

34

Westboro Baptist Church: Are They Christians?

by whereami in

jw
friends

.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrzao6ibmlc.

donuthole

Westboro Baptist Church is what on the Internet would be referred to as professional trolls. Their antics and beliefs do not come from their faith as they would have people believe but rather are specifically designed to provoke and cause a negative reaction. This "church" is predominantly a family of a lawyers. The leader of the group Fred Phelps was actually a civil rights lawyer before he became infamous as head of Westboro Baptist Church. Phelps has found a way to cash in and he uses the religious angle to do so. The goal is to get people to attack the group, so that he can sue. The goal is to get local municipalities to not allow them to protest, so that he can sue. That is why they choose slogans that are so inflammatory and they are continually upping the ante. (i.e. "God Bless IED's") Does the group really believe that "God Hats Fags?"; it is beside the point, what they really believe is that by preaching that they will make people angry. That is also why they have shifted over from gay hatred to American hatred and even beyond. That is why they were going to targeting military funerals to even a high media profile funeral of a child. The whole "Christianity" slant is a "snare and a racket", a ruse to cash in on lawsuits for people that violate their cival rights.

29

The King of the North and the King of the South. What gives?

by dgp in

if i understood correctly, one of the ideas advanced as proof of jehovah's witnesses beliefs is that of the kings of the north and the south.

i didn't understand much of it, to a large extent because i think it's nonsense, but something else i did find curious.. the king of the north was the soviet union, and the king of the south were the united states.

i am not sure the soviet union is "north" of the united states in any sense (think of alaska), but, that aside, what kind of theological distress resulted when the king of the north crumbled to pieces?

donuthole

Leolaia - Thank you for the interesting references. Do you have any period references where the events of Daniel 11:30-35 are applied to Rome, or any other entity distinct from Greece/Antiochus IV, apart from what is recorded in the Olivet discourse in the gospels? Even at Matthew 24:15 it may be that the events of Antiochus IV are still in view, but are just simply being used by way of example. Such as, when you catch sight of Rome in the temple, just like you've read that Greece did in the past, it's time to get out of dodge. It is also interesting that this element is present in the gospel that is written to a Hebrew audience, familiar with their scripture and history.

29

The King of the North and the King of the South. What gives?

by dgp in

if i understood correctly, one of the ideas advanced as proof of jehovah's witnesses beliefs is that of the kings of the north and the south.

i didn't understand much of it, to a large extent because i think it's nonsense, but something else i did find curious.. the king of the north was the soviet union, and the king of the south were the united states.

i am not sure the soviet union is "north" of the united states in any sense (think of alaska), but, that aside, what kind of theological distress resulted when the king of the north crumbled to pieces?

donuthole

My understanding is that scholars generally view the events up to Daniel 11:35 following closely to history leading up to the rule of Antiochus, but after that verse, particularly from forty onward, there is a shift where it gets predictive, and the verses don't quite mirror the final events with that ruler.

I was really astounded the first time I read the book of Maccabees because it followed so closely with Daniel, such as the whole part about this ruler installing the disgusting thing in the temple.

But here is where I have questions. It would seem that Jewish people of Jesus time were familiar with these accounts and the history of the Maccabean revolt. With this in mind I find it interesting that Jesus is quoted as calling attention to this and yet applies Daniel prophecy about the disgusting thing standing in the Holy Place to some future event.

29

The King of the North and the King of the South. What gives?

by dgp in

if i understood correctly, one of the ideas advanced as proof of jehovah's witnesses beliefs is that of the kings of the north and the south.

i didn't understand much of it, to a large extent because i think it's nonsense, but something else i did find curious.. the king of the north was the soviet union, and the king of the south were the united states.

i am not sure the soviet union is "north" of the united states in any sense (think of alaska), but, that aside, what kind of theological distress resulted when the king of the north crumbled to pieces?

donuthole

I had to wait until I was home to look up this reference illustrating some more of the Watchtower's sleight of hand when it comes to this section of the book of Daniel.

Daniel 11:35 reads, "And some of those having insight will be made to stumble, in order to do a refining work because of them and to do a cleansing and to do a whitening, until the time of [the] end; because it is yet for the time appointed."

When does the Society claim the "time of the end" started? The usual answer is 1914. So really according to their chronology the limit of this portion of Daniel's prophecy would expire in 1914. But the problem is that they apply this section of Daniel to events that happened after 1914, during the Cold War of 1948-1989.

So how does the Society navigate this gaffe? By claiming that the "time of the end" mentioned at Daniel 11:35 is not the TIME OF THE END, but rather a generic time of the end for this particular event. They say:

"Hence, at Daniel 11:35, "the time of the end" must relate to the end of the period of time needed for God's people to be refined while enduring the assault of the King of the North."

However, just a few verse later at Daniel 11:40, the go right back to interpreting "the time of the end" in the typical Watchtower fashion, applying it to the time period that began in 1914 leading up to Armageddon.

16

Help w/ Bible Teach ch 9 section "Major Developments of the Last Days"

by InterestedOne in

i'm in ch 9 in my study, and we will go over the section "major developments of the last days" (pars 6-9) next week.

although i don't see anything special in pars 7-9, i think par 6 allows the jw's to strike a chord with people, and i was wondering if anyone could help me with how to respond to it.

they are able to quote real figures in that paragraph such as "three times as many people fell victim to war in [the 20th] century as in all the wars from the first century ad to 1899.".

donuthole

I was already to chime in but Mad Sweeny already got in there. I think that Jesus' words as recorded shoot down the whole JW interpretation when read carefully. I know that JW's won't listen to him so you may need to point out where wars and plagues killed many more people prior to 1914. Look around, I've seen the figures a time or two.

29

The King of the North and the King of the South. What gives?

by dgp in

if i understood correctly, one of the ideas advanced as proof of jehovah's witnesses beliefs is that of the kings of the north and the south.

i didn't understand much of it, to a large extent because i think it's nonsense, but something else i did find curious.. the king of the north was the soviet union, and the king of the south were the united states.

i am not sure the soviet union is "north" of the united states in any sense (think of alaska), but, that aside, what kind of theological distress resulted when the king of the north crumbled to pieces?

donuthole

The official company line since the breakdown of the Soviet Union is, "we don't know". If I remember correctly post 9-11, one Bethel heavy (a GB member?) was floating the idea that the King of the North was Islam or Muslim extremists. I hadn't heard the UN mentioned by anyone of note but in the past I did find it a bit interesting that the UN logo is the northen hemisphere with a laurel crown. If I was playing pictionary and had to draw "King of the North" I couldn't think of a more obvious depiction.

The beginning explanation of the two kings in the Daniel prophecies book follows closely with what other Bible commentators have interpreted for years. With this in mind I always got a kick out of how JW's gushed over the GB's explanations, knowing that any number of Bible commetaries covered the same material. Where the JW version diverges is where it inexplicably jumps from ancient history to the events in modern times, starting with the World Wars.

36

Assembly changes

by d in

i was wondering what changes have you seen with assemblies now.compared to assemblies in the 1950's..

donuthole

One of my favorite assembly memories of recent times is after the concluding prayer, one older sister says to another, "Well, I guess they all can't be good." It was a refreshing change from the normal, "Best. Assembly. Ever."