Posts by mindmelda

4

Hypnotists..your thoughts please?

by vikesgirl101 in

as part of my departure of the jw org, i attended a town festival, in which they had a hypnotist there entertaining.

it was hysterical and surreal to watch.

but there is a lingering stigma about hypnotists from jw's.

mindmelda

The WTS knows nothing about psychology or how the brain works, it seems.

Our brains are amazing..we have yet to discover all they're capable of, but it's been mystics of all faiths who stumbled on these perfectly normal altered states of mind first, simply because they practice disciplines that encourage altered mental states.

I've been reading a lot about that...and altered states of mind similar to both hypnosis and self-hypnosis are often experienced by those in prayer or meditation. The brainwaves are measurably similar.

7

Any Experience with Two Judicial Committees?

by dig692 in

hi everyone, just wondering if anyone that is or was df'd before has any experience with moving to a new congregation and having to meet with their old jc and a new jc at their new hall?.

a friend of mine who is df has been trying to get back in to reconnect with her family and is having a really hard time with the reinstatement process.

she has been attending meetings at the new congregation for about a year now and has asked the new jc to meet to discuss her reinstatement.

mindmelda

My brother stayed DA'd for almost a decade because of something like this. The group of elders but onethat DA'd him (unjustly, he never wrote the letter, his ex did and signed both their names, he was already moved away when she did it) had all been DF'd themselves for a business scam by the time he asked for reinstatement.

So, there was no one to question about it but that one elder and he was long moved away. Finally, they dug up his old congo records and they had him as Deceased, no letter and still...the new JC decided he needed to go to meetings for two years to prove he wanted to come back in badly enough as he'd DA'd himself...except he hadn't.

It was, to say the least, a total fiasco. I couldn't look at that mess and a few others I know of and feel that was "of the holy spirit" for love nor money.

10

would you want to be part of any religion that changes the bible on purpose?...

by oompa in

...and makes it say what they want it to in order to fit their doctrines???

nearly every jw and non would answer no!

i wish i had started off my last elder visit with that question.

mindmelda

I agree that the Witnesses are among the worst at reading in there what they want. I've always said that they should have done what the Mormons did and just wrote their own Bible. LOL

My mom always comes back with that "I'd want to be a JW even if it wasn't "the truth" and even if "Armageddon doesn't come in my lifetime" and "even if there's no New System".

The only thing that tells me is that it's crossed her mind (I'm sure it crosses most JW minds, but then they hurry up and drink some Watchtower Koolaid to cure it) occasionally that it's all a bunch of horse hockey. Because it's normal to be skeptical of big claims of anything.

People don't stay in high control Bible sects or cults because they believe the Bible, which is pretty hard stuff to pin down and subject to varying interpretation, but because they believe that the sect or cult they're in is the "chosen" one by God. Mind control accomplishes that, not the Bible.

There's guilt enough to go around if you're comparing most religions and religious people to Christ's example. There's room for improvement in the "not judging" and "forgiveness" departments all the way around when it comes to organizations. They tend to have a higher potential for screwing up than individuals when it comes to religion, simply because they have more power to abuse.

Nearly everyone who believes in God would love to believe they have God's favor...it's just that these "high control" groups take it to another level and throw some mind control in there in some attempt to remove what is perfectly normal skepticism and doubt. They confuse faith in the supernatural with things like unquestioning obedience and loyalty to THEM. Or they're not confused and they're just playing it for all they can get out of the members.

4

Baptism Question question

by mindmelda in

jw
friends

i was baptized at age 16 in 1976. i was baptized "old style" meaning before the 1985 change where one dedicates oneself to the organization in the baptism questions.

i was baptized "in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit".. i have some questions:.

can a minor (under age 18 in america) be held legally responsible for a public statement like answering the baptismal questions?

mindmelda

I feel that constitutional emphasis on freedom of religion in America is probably the only reason JWs flourished here. Same with any of the other non-mainstream sects that have gained a large following here. I notice that they don't travel quite as well to other countries.

I know the Boy Scouts, who are not a religion but a club that invokes some Christian principles in their rules and charter, are allowed to practice exclusion of homosexuals, in spite of the fact that they are in part supported by federal funding. The government has been called to task on the fact that they help support a discriminatory organization.

With that being said, I can well believe that shunning can't be legally challenged with much success. I wonder if that will change with the growing antipathy towards religion in America? Will the gov't be continually willing to put up with some of the more "out there" religions like JWs and Scientology?

I was around (spotty meeting attendance and field service since the 90s) after 1985, but attended very few conventions after the early 90s. Only a few circuit assemblies. I haven't been to a district convention in over 15 years.

But, I too never noticed the change in the baptismal question after 1985. Just slid that one right under our noses, I guess.

I did read that the Netherlands disallow the keeping of publisher records as a violation of personal privacy. I would hope that personal privacy could one day trump "freedom of religion" enough in America to prevent strangers from knowing about my personal business.

I do like think that there might be some basis to prevent the shunning of minors who are baptized then DF'd, though. It could come under the province of emotional abuse and brought to the attention of Child Protective Services in America or equivalent elsewhere.

Out of posts, so if I comment again, it will have to be on this post in the form of an edit or as a PM.

4

Baptism Question question

by mindmelda in

jw
friends

i was baptized at age 16 in 1976. i was baptized "old style" meaning before the 1985 change where one dedicates oneself to the organization in the baptism questions.

i was baptized "in the name of the father, the son and the holy spirit".. i have some questions:.

can a minor (under age 18 in america) be held legally responsible for a public statement like answering the baptismal questions?

mindmelda

I was baptized at age 16 in 1976. I was baptized "old style" meaning before the 1985 change where one dedicates oneself to the organization in the baptism questions. I was baptized "in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit".

I have some questions:

Can a minor (under age 18 in America) be held legally responsible for a public statement like answering the baptismal questions? In that case, would the WTS really be able to ask others to shun them upon DF or DA and it not be a form of discrimination or slander to even announce it publicly?

Could this be why the elder's simply allow some people to "fade" out of the organization rather than DF them as apostate as it would involve certain legal complications, particularly in some countries? Has this point or one similar ever been contested in court?

Also, since no one baptized as a Witness prior to 1985 was asked to dedicate themselves to "God's visible organization" are they indeed held as having made that vow?

Probably been asked before, but I can't find anything in particular.

10

Why do Religionists get so Defensive?

by LouBelle in

i'm not only talking about our former religion, but all faiths.

members will defend their faith, some very stubbornly no matter what evidence is shown to them, even if it's from the bible.

many a time they only want it to be seen their way and won't allow for another interpretation.. does it stem from the fact that they are scared about being wrong?

mindmelda

Believe me, after years of running forums on the internet, people can get behind just about any ideology where belief is a factor, (not just religion) and defend it to the death.

It really depends on the person. Some invest a lot of their selves into their beliefs, and any attack on the belief is seen as a personal attack. As humans, we're unable to be totally subjective about anything, but some are less able than others.

It's just one of those things about the way we're emotionally constructed that gets easily distorted. But, the more we're able to see the other person's point of view, the more rational we try to be, and the more we TRY to be objective about our own thinking the less combative we will be.

One of the first things one learns in cognitive behavioral therapy, a therapy designed to root out faulty thinking that lead to depression, one thing you have to rid yourself of is this notion that to be lovable, everyone must agree with you. (Ironically, this "faulty thinking" check list was once printed in an Awake article about depression.)

I really think that's why so many Witnesses suffer from depression. They think everyone must agree 100% on everything to be loved by God and by each other. That's not only unrealistic it's CRAZY.

Humans naturally differ in opinion because we are all unique. Witnesses don't agree nearly as much as they pretend to about belief or anything else. They just feel compelled to pretend that they have this amazing (and virtually impossible) unity.

A Catholic can say "I disagree with the Pope about birth control" and not have to worry that he won't be thought a Catholic for thinking and saying that. A Baptist can say, "I can drink beer if I want!" and not have to worry about not being able to go to the Baptist church and be shunned for everyone knowing that.

Most mainstreams religions have the good sense, for the most part, to be tolerant of the differences of belief and behavior in their membership, even if it's outright disagreement with doctrine.

Notice that religions like Islamic fundamentalism are railed against more and more for NOT being tolerant of individuality. People think more and more that it's WRONG to be this punishing of dissent and individual freedom. Because deep down we all know how normal it is, and how abnormal to suppress it.

Witnesses have to deal with the same intolerance of individuality as other fundamentalist or high control groups and it makes them extremely defensive about their beliefs. They have to deny so much of themselves to adhere to it, they have to convince themselves it's worth the sacrifice.

They may not be violent about it (they can be, though) but it's pretty much the same mentality that causes a man to strap a bomb to himself and die in the name of Allah as it is for a Witness to refuse blood and thus believes he dies faithful to Jehovah.

Better and so much more emotionally healthy to just accept that people have varying experiences, personalities, beliefs and ideas, and to agree to respect that.

Groups, parties, religions can only define you to an extent...when they define all or most of you, the extremism begins.

14

The Purpose Of The Preaching Work

by The-Borg in

jw
friends

jehovah is apparently allowing the preaching work to continue to save as many people as possible.

(that's what i was always told and read anyway.).

last time i checked population growth far outsrips the growth of jehovah's witnesses.

mindmelda

It's an unrealistic goal if taken literally. The population of the world general is increasing faster than Witnesses are to preach to them.

If they believed it just refers to Christianity in general and not JWs, it has been long fulfilled. Most of the inhabited world has heard of Christianity and it's basic beliefs.

If you believe it only refers to your relatively small sect of Christianity, it's highly problematic it could be fulfilled in any literal way.

35

Goofy GB illustration someone related to me

by sir82 in

jw
friends

apparently gb member geoff jackson gave this illustration at a dc talk recently:.

imagine you are watching an (american) football game - your team is behind by 6 points and time is nearly expired.

your team's quarterback throws a long pass, and a receiver makes the catch and is streaking toward the end zone.

mindmelda

LOL sir82! I can't tell you how often I'd leave a meeting or a convention thinking, "Man, what a crappy metaphor or illustration that guy gave, made no sense at all!" when most everyone else was raving over it.

But, I always was being accused of "independent thinking" by the Witnesses. Mea Culpa!

I'm sure that illustration wasn't in the outline...I thought veering from the outlines was highly discouraged now...well, maybe not if you're of the GB, huh?

71

I can't take this pain anymore...my life at dead end

by JustHuman14 in

my life has reached to a dead end...i'm stuck and there is no way out.

i was inactive for 6 years and i'm disfellowshiped for the past 3. i would never think that my life would have been in this terrible mess.. .

i wasn't planned to be disfellowshiped by my "wife" turned me in to the elders for apostasy 2 times!!!

mindmelda

Even though you are disfellowshipped and don't believe what the WTS puts out there, they're still running your life.

You're entitled to a life as much as your wife and family. She has her friends over, why can't you have friends over? She has her interests, why can't you?

I find the Witnesses to be real bullies about these things and they justify it because they believe God approves of them and no one else. Just because you believe you are right about everything doesn't justify being obnoxious about it. That is not displaying the spiritual fruitage of mildness, kindness or goodness.

I find it ironic that you're accused of arrogance. Do they really know what that word means?

Arrogance is defined as exaggerating one's importance or worth in a overbearing manner.

It has nothing in it's definition about what or who is right or wrong, it just describes obnoxious, self important behavior.

Maybe getting off of this debate between you about who is right or wrong would ease things. Just agree not to be obnoxious to each other.

35

Goofy GB illustration someone related to me

by sir82 in

jw
friends

apparently gb member geoff jackson gave this illustration at a dc talk recently:.

imagine you are watching an (american) football game - your team is behind by 6 points and time is nearly expired.

your team's quarterback throws a long pass, and a receiver makes the catch and is streaking toward the end zone.

mindmelda

My husband, a big football fan, (he used to play in high school, defensive end) is laughing at ineptness this illustraton. Players pretty much KNOW how much time they have left on the clock before they go out on the field, and so no one would be stopping at the goal to check the time.

So, the situation he's proposing would never happen. I've been watching football for years and have never seen anyone do what he's describing, it'd be unbelievably idiotic.

As someone mentioned above, football players know where the goal is, and they know what time it is on the clock. It's nothing like human beings like waiting around for Armageddon, who have neither one of these facts.

Does the audience who listens to this stuff never stop and analyze it at all?