Posts by mindmelda

11

I was an atheist before I became one of JW's, now I'm an agnostic...

by gubberningbody in

jw
friends

i know that people here have gone on and joined other religious groups for community.. if that makes them happy, then fine.. it wouldn't make me happy, because i don't care about religious community.. i have yet to find any religious group of people who are willing to challenge, examine, evaluate and publish in a kind-of "peer-reviewed" fashion what they believe, why they believe it, what's potentially wrong about the various beliefs and what would constitute a necessary and sufficient evidence for rejecting or accepting a given belief.. everything should be on the table for questioning or rejecting.. it's been my experience that most people and groups get together to homogenize and reject, and further that these do so in an illegitimate and morally self-inconsistent manner.. .

mindmelda

I actually believe that God welcomes doubt, debate and skepticism. Why would we have these traits, otherwise? They're also really handy for living with fellow human beings, who require lots of skepticism, of course. But, for mindless unquestioning belief, they're a pain in the ass. So, the two choices are...no belief in God and these are just useful traits in general, or belief in God and he also finds them useful traits. Either way, useful.

Also, there are plenty of people in the Bible and other Christian writings who God didn't stomp for questioning him, debating him and even doubting him.

Abraham, Jacob, Lot, Moses,Jonah, Peter, Thomas...all people in the Bible who God allowed to question him; to show disbelief, doubt, lack of faith, doubt and skepticm and amazingly enough, he didn't execute them on the spot. Too bad the WTS can't take a page out of that book!

If wisdom is also figuring out what you don't know about everything, that means an agnostic is maybe more aware of what he doesn't know than some people, and that makes you pretty wise. *G*

14

"Keeping the congregation clean"

by Chalam in

i have just been reading another thread and thought about how importance the outward appearance is to jws.. however, god does not care for the exterior, he is concerned with what is at the core.

inner beauty is everasting.. 1 samuel 16:7 (new international version) .

7 but the lord said to samuel, "do not consider his appearance or his height, for i have rejected him.

mindmelda

I find Jesus comments about the religious teachers of his time and place to fit the WTS pretty well.

They "shut up the Kingdom of the Heavens before men". They don't allow most believers to be born again from spirit by means of Christ, something that is clearly open to all.

They "traverse land and sea to make one proselyte and then make him liable to hell" by lying about the true nature of God and how to worship him.

They "strain out the gnat and gulp down the camel" when they go beyond what is written and teach men's ideas as God's word. They disregard the "weightier" matters of the Bible which are mercy, righteousness and justice in favor of legalistic and burdening rules they've invented to keep people under control.

They "appear righteous to others, but inside are full of hypocrisy and unrighteousness". They break their own rules when it suits them and then punish others for it.

82

I commented about apostates today at the meeting

by cognac in

jw
friends

i couldn't help myself.

it was so obnoxious what the paragraph was saying about apostates.. so i said that having a difference of opinion is not a problem but really as brought out by thessolonians it is when a person raises themselves up above god to have people follow them instead of god that they are considered bad in god's eyes.. i don't even know if it had anything to do with the question, but i just wanted to say that, lol..

mindmelda

I think the WTS defines apostasy as disagreeing with them and encouraging others to do so. You can't convince them that they don't understand the Bible, even though I don't think they do. I don't think of myself as disgreeing with God or the Bible...just the WTS interpretation of it. Fine distinction to be sure, but it's important to me.

Don't you have to be wholeheartedly loyal to something in the first place to be apostate to it?

I doubt I was ever "in" in the sense of being a true believer. And I sucked at it most of the time because of that unbelief, so I tend to think that my baptism into those beliefs that should have never happened in the first place.

17

Do you ever shed the Jw experience?

by AK - Jeff in

i have been out for 5 years.

my wife and i left together.

she saw the sham long before i did - though neither of us could 'put our finger on' what was wrong until we read coc, found the internet, etc.. i believe my wife leans toward atheism more than i do - i consider myself agnostic of the whole matter at this point.

mindmelda

Unless I get traumatic amnesia, no. But, I'm integrating it into my life as part of my past. When my daughter died 20 years ago, it gave me the realization that you don't get over some things, they're always part of you and have lasting effect both that is both negative and positive. Not every single thing about my JW experience as bad. Some of it was neutral, some fairly good.

I have to say the times when I was with other JWs and we were acting LESS like JWs and we were just friends and being ourselves were the best. Backpacking trips, socializing, it was all pretty normal and that's when I enjoyed it the most.

In fact it's one of the things that made me realize that more "normal" in my life would be a good thing. *G*

Trying not to throw out the baby with the dirty bathwater here. *G*

It's also my opinion that the WTS has descended more into reinforcing cult-like behaviors and attitudes in the last 20 years.

I think the big "apostasy" of the 80s really shook their monkey tree and now they're seeing it everywhere, and ironically, are contributing to that very thing by less flexibility in doctrine than they used to have in some respects. It IS everywhere, but whose fault is that? They set people up for heresy by their very inflexibilty and literalism. If every question or doubt is seen as the seeds of apostasy, well, of course it's going to be everywhere! It's normal for people to question and doubt. Suppression of question and doubt is not how to diminish it, it only increases it.

They're getting more paranoid as society changes around them because they're sure that everyone is going to turn on them before the END. Even Fundamentalists are getting more complaining about government and personal persecution. They share a belief with JWs that Christians will be more persecuted in the End of Days scenario, so they're inclined to interpret events according to expectation.

It could turn into self fulfilling prophecy as the more radical and more removed from society the more fundamenalist or fringe Christian religions get, the more the government will tend to scrutinize them.

20

Anyone have a good Meeting for Field Service story?

by BonaFide in

jw
friends

oh, yes those wonderful meetings for service.

for some reason, they are so long and disorganized and boring.

seems no one wants to get out there in the territory.. i remember in one hall when i was a teenager, a ministerial servant, about 50 years old, would conduct the midweek meeting for service at the kh at 9 am.

mindmelda

Car groups are common in the US because of the size of territories and in some places, a lot of it is rural. You have to drive door to door in some areas.

Anyway, I was showing up at a private home where they met for FS and no one would put me in their car group because they all already had arranged who they were going out with before the group met. In that congo, people did that all the time. Everything arranged the night before, and if you didn't make private arrangements like that, no one to work with so I just went home.

Small rural area congo, you see. Mostly all sisters running the field service meeting, so it got pretty clique-ish.

The only time FS was conducted by the book is when the CO showed up twice a year. Otherwise, this congo did things their own way in many ways because it was easier for them.

2

AVATAR the movie

by cattails in

jw
friends

i want to go see it so bad when it comes.

out on dec 18th, 2009... uhhh armageddon.

isn't coming until after that right?

mindmelda

I LOVE AVATAR. I hope the movie doesn't suck.

I think high ideal science fiction and high fantasy appeal to a lot of JWs. It's about hope for the future you know. In spite of all their retarded beliefs, they just want that.

Who doesn't?

I had to laugh at my old congo when they were saying "Ohhh, don't go to Harry Potter movies, it's about wizards!"

And then they were lining up like lemmings to see the Lord of the Rings movies. Ditto for Star Wars. Most of them, anyway Which are about wizards.

Inconsistancy much?

Hey at least it was a sign of independent thinking...hurray!

I watch what I want and have for some time now. I don't like really violent movies, though. I'm sensitive. Gives me nightmares.

17

why do elders ask such personal questions when deciding whether to disfellowship

by looloo in

a friend of mine was asked if she had become "moist" along with had penetration actually taken place , why is that necassary to ask along with did you fondle breasts etc surley they could keep it short and ask if the "deed " was done , yes or no ?

why all the other questions ?

she was only 19 with no experiance of life and sex and was so embaressed she could not answer and was disfellowshipped for being "cocky" any ideas ?.

mindmelda

Ah, yes, I remember Christ dealt that way with all the whores he talked to...he took them into a room with a few of the other apostles and asked them the intimate details of how they practiced their trade, and whether they got aroused, how often they went down on clients and oh, how much they charged. And yeah, I think the first century elders did that to that man who slept with his father's wife too. They asked him all the kinky details. "Hey, what's it like to sleep with your step mom? Boy that's sick, you're a kinky little devil aren't you?"

After all, he and the apostles and elders had the authority to do so and people who are such terrible sinners deserve to be dehumanized and emotionally raped.

Now, where IS that scripture???

Well, I can't seem to find it. But, if the Witnesses, who base all their behavior on first century Christianity do it, it must be in there. Hey, wait, they just forgave that one guy with the hot stepmother and comforted him because he quit doing it. That can't be right?!! WHUT?

/satire

5

Kingdom Halls

by Megachusen in

jw
friends

growing up in the religion i always wondered why kingdom halls are designed the way they are.

for instance:.

*why don't they have windows?.

mindmelda

Sadly, the lack of windows is more about money than anything. I'm finding a lot of things about the WTS are all about the ka-ching.

How about this scripture:

"No one can be a slave to two masters, for, either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will stick to one and despise the other. You cannot be slaves to God and riches." NWT

Windows cost more in air conditioning and insurance premiums and security. Also, I'm sure that looking out of windows might be conducive to doing some daydreaming to relieve the mind numbing content of 99% of the meetings.

I went to a Kingdom Hall with windows for many years, as it was in a low crime area where electricity and insurance was less costly.

I was always looking out of them daydreaming and wishing I was out there doing something less boring.

If boredom were lethal, most Jehovah's Witness speakers would be on death row.

82

CAMARADERIE

by snowbird in

jw
friends

are you at times envious of the camaraderie among some posters?.

any takers?.

sylvia.

mindmelda

It's nice here, but I have plenty of non JW internet friends. I'll play with anyone who plays nicely, though. I'm here to make friends and I think I'm pretty good at it.

Oh, I have non internet friends too.

20

Whale Wars? Piracy or not?

by Brocephus in

jw
friends

ok, i am hooked and the new season starts tonight.

plus the show looks great on my new hdtv.

here is my question:.

mindmelda

It's not piracy according to their laws, but there has to be an easier and more ecologically sound way to get some of these products they're after.

I don't think you can make people quit performing abortions by killing one guy who did them. You can't make anyone quit doing it, even when there were laws against it. Just like you can't make people stop hunting whales when it's legal for them to do so, even though it horrifies and offends you.

I'm not for abortion,but I fail to see how making it illegal stopped it entirely, either. Rich women had abortions where it was legal and poor ones went to doctors who did it illegally and often, unsafely.