Scholar - if the "times" of Daniel and the "times" of Revelation are related why do you believe in Daniel 1 time = 360 years but in Revelation 1 time = 1 year? I pointed out to do so is like matching up Nostradamus prophesies after the fact. You can make anything fit. Or like bennyK's quote above. Russell applied the "last days", Gentile times, Harvest time, and Jesus' "parousia" as king to completely different dates and prophecies and proved it scripturally! You can make the scriptures fit whatever you want if you allow the kind of fuzzy assumptions and leaps of logic you make here. Just like the new understanding of Generation - there was an article in 1981 proving that he generation could not scripturally mean the anointed, but now that is what it means and we can scripturally prove it. PS - It would be more convincing if you quote somebody instead of saying "expositors agree" or "celebrated WT scolars" these vague unverifiable references subtract from your arguement rather than adding to it. Just friendly constructive criticism.
allelsefails
JoinedPosts by allelsefails
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421
70 years = 607?
by allelsefails in70 years of captivity?.
i myself have always believed that when archaeology disagreed with the bible the bible must be right.
that is how i dismissed the idea that jerusalem was destroyed in 586/587 bce.
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421
70 years = 607?
by allelsefails in70 years of captivity?.
i myself have always believed that when archaeology disagreed with the bible the bible must be right.
that is how i dismissed the idea that jerusalem was destroyed in 586/587 bce.
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allelsefails
Perhaps more than a cursory reading is necessary. Yes I see verse 3 recognizes that God has dominion over the earth and has a kingdom that lasts forever. vs 32 uses the times for years because that is what times means in this context. vs 34 is again Neb recognizing Jehovah's power to remove or restore an earthly king - which he had just done to Neb. What demonstrates a fulfillment of this prophecy beyond Neb? This is an amazing example of Jehovah's ability to remove and humble the most powerful leader of the time and then restore him after 7 years. Also to give his prophet advance knowledge of the event. Don't see "gentile times" anywhere. "eschatological application" because it used the word times? ..... WTS says: times = years *** re chap. 27 p. 184 pars. 26 God’s Kingdom Is Born! *** 26 How long did this respite for the seed of God’s woman last? Revelation 12:6 says 1,260 days. Revelation 12:14 calls the period a time, times, and half a time; in other words, three and a half times. In fact, both expressions stand for three and a half years, extending in the Northern Hemisphere from the spring of 1919 to the autumn of 1922. This was a period of refreshing recuperation and reorganization for the restored John class. .............. This is the scripture they give to show the length of 7 times! So times mean years of days in Daniel and has a much bigger fulfillment, but only regular years in Revelation? Sorry not reasonable. Might as well be Nostradamus if you're going to randomly apply rules and definitions to bible words and phrases to make them fit your own history. Allelsefails
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70 years = 607?
by allelsefails in70 years of captivity?.
i myself have always believed that when archaeology disagreed with the bible the bible must be right.
that is how i dismissed the idea that jerusalem was destroyed in 586/587 bce.
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allelsefails
Scholar - you stated "There is considerable evidence establishing the seven times with the Gentile Times and the said scholar has tabulated such evidence for the honest and dutiful inquirer" I have been a baptized witness since 1991. I was an elder for more than 6 years. I have read every verse of Daniel several times over and there is no evidence to suggest 7 years = Gentile times. Could you please provide me a link to any such scriptural thought? I don't know who Jonsson is. My thoughts are a result of my own honest bible study. Calling me braindead is not an effective way to prove your claim to christianity. Thanks for your posts, but don't denegrate me. I am a sincere bible student.
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My experience at the District Convention today - Appreciate your comments
by BonaFide ini know i am the one to constantly harp on this board how the organization has lost its "swagger" and the baptism and attendance is going down, and people are waking up.. not so fast.. the audience cried, i mean a lot of people cried when they played some of the songs from the new songbook.
some had bethel singers who sounded pretty good singing them.
so many after the program were saying how touched they were.. then the new release of the book showing how the book of acts prefigures the organization today.
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allelsefails
For me I think getting people to see the truth is a worthy goal. I think you could use questions that witnesses can't answer and say "I was asked this in the ministry and wasn't sure how to answer" - You're not the bad guy - Just asking for help. They'll usually give you the canned WTS answer, but you put the question in their head and it will grow. A few good questions: How can we prove scripturally 144,000 is a literal number? Why do we say Jeruslaem was destroyed in 607? (tell them they brought out their encyclopedia.) Why do we think the 7 years of Nebuchadnezzar's insanity = the Gentile times? How could the "Great Crowd" be Earthly if they serve in the Sanctuary (greek - Naos) not temple (hieron)? These ar some I've done research on that are effective. The WTS answers to these questions are unsatisfactory at best. Anyone who researches these points to "help" you will generate more questions for themselves. Let me know if you need any specific help with these topics I've done some research and can point you to the a few places for help.
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My Weak Agnostic Testimony
by besty inin terms of faith i have decided to give the invisible characters a rest for the time being.
the last set i had weren't really adding any value, and right now i'm happy with more rational answers to life's mysteries.. in my opinion religion was an early attempt to answer these mysteries and so inevitably we are accelerating towards a post-religious world.
when technology allows us to extend our lives as long as we wish, the need for salvation via invisible magic diminishes.it seems to me that religion is deeply influenced by parental authority and cultural norms.
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allelsefails
I think with or without belief in God people assign to themselves responsibility however they want. You can blame God, Satan, your parents, your third grade teacher or the random events of a Godless universe. Almost everyone lives in a state of self-delusion of one one kind or another. Either religious, psychological, emotional ... they all have an effect on our personal sense of responsibility. Mouthy - you're awesome.
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My Weak Agnostic Testimony
by besty inin terms of faith i have decided to give the invisible characters a rest for the time being.
the last set i had weren't really adding any value, and right now i'm happy with more rational answers to life's mysteries.. in my opinion religion was an early attempt to answer these mysteries and so inevitably we are accelerating towards a post-religious world.
when technology allows us to extend our lives as long as we wish, the need for salvation via invisible magic diminishes.it seems to me that religion is deeply influenced by parental authority and cultural norms.
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allelsefails
1 - subconscious fatalism and refusal to fully internalize accountability Can you explain this a little more? I think it is a good point, but I am a bear with little brains and big words bother me :-)
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My Weak Agnostic Testimony
by besty inin terms of faith i have decided to give the invisible characters a rest for the time being.
the last set i had weren't really adding any value, and right now i'm happy with more rational answers to life's mysteries.. in my opinion religion was an early attempt to answer these mysteries and so inevitably we are accelerating towards a post-religious world.
when technology allows us to extend our lives as long as we wish, the need for salvation via invisible magic diminishes.it seems to me that religion is deeply influenced by parental authority and cultural norms.
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allelsefails
Belief in God = Organized Religion. Not for me. Religion leads to ridiculous actions - I can't disagree. I also don't believe in a traditional Christian/Jesus God necessarily. I never thought about telling Zeus why I picked Jehovah - interesting new thought. AS far as forever.... technology has provided us extended lives already. I'd like my life extended indefinitely. However a bomb at the wrong place will end the idea of forever for the atheist but not for the deist. Here is a quote from Thomas Jefferson that represents an interesting perspective: "I hold (without appeal to revelation) that when we take a view of the universe, in its parts, general or particular, it is impossible for the human mind not to perceive and feel a conviction of design, consummate skill, and indefinite power in every atom of its composition. The movements of the heavenly bodies, so exactly held in their course by the balance of centrifugal and centripetal forces; the structure of the Earth itself, with its distribution of lands, waters and atmosphere; animal and vegetable bodies, examined in all their minutest particles; insects, mere atoms of life, yet as perfectly organized as man or mammoth; the mineral substances, their generation and uses, it is impossible, I say, for the human mind not to believe, that there is in all this, design, cause and effect, up to an ultimate cause, a Fabricator of all things from matter and motion, their Preserver and Regulator, while permitted to exist in their present forms, and their regeneration into new and other forms. We see, too, evident proofs of the necessity of a superintending power, to maintain the universe in its course and order." I hold that "rational minds" can still believe in God's existence without the dogmatism of "religion".
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My Weak Agnostic Testimony
by besty inin terms of faith i have decided to give the invisible characters a rest for the time being.
the last set i had weren't really adding any value, and right now i'm happy with more rational answers to life's mysteries.. in my opinion religion was an early attempt to answer these mysteries and so inevitably we are accelerating towards a post-religious world.
when technology allows us to extend our lives as long as we wish, the need for salvation via invisible magic diminishes.it seems to me that religion is deeply influenced by parental authority and cultural norms.
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allelsefails
Besty I think your logic is good when it comes to God interfering in our lives. My brother died when he was 20 and I was 13. I hate to hear how God saved someone through some tragedy. Why did he save you, your friend, your relative, but not my brother? Screw that God. If God exists as creator who created humans with some future life as a possibility, he has proven that he has no interest in what we're doing now. He certainly didn't save certain people thru a war, but let millions of Jews go to the gas chamber. One scripture I have never argued with - Ecc. 9:11 - "time and unforseen occurrence befall them all" - that is good and bad things happen deal with it.
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My Weak Agnostic Testimony
by besty inin terms of faith i have decided to give the invisible characters a rest for the time being.
the last set i had weren't really adding any value, and right now i'm happy with more rational answers to life's mysteries.. in my opinion religion was an early attempt to answer these mysteries and so inevitably we are accelerating towards a post-religious world.
when technology allows us to extend our lives as long as we wish, the need for salvation via invisible magic diminishes.it seems to me that religion is deeply influenced by parental authority and cultural norms.
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allelsefails
Things have moved along quite a bit since my last real post. I do use probability in making decisions, but not all decisions. More than half of marriages end in divorce, but I still got married and have a hope it will last (13 yrs and counting). The odds don't really matter if your playing with house money. There is no disadvantage to belief and worship of God (as long as it does not lead to ridiculous and harmful actions). Certainly an atheist can live a life of altruism and love of neighbor. But if I live a life exactly the same, but believe the good I do is part of my worship to a loving God (of whom I have no proof)and say a few prayers (maybe heard maybe not) - What is the negative for me? Maybe I live forever, maybe I don't. The Atheist still has no hope of "forever".
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67
My Weak Agnostic Testimony
by besty inin terms of faith i have decided to give the invisible characters a rest for the time being.
the last set i had weren't really adding any value, and right now i'm happy with more rational answers to life's mysteries.. in my opinion religion was an early attempt to answer these mysteries and so inevitably we are accelerating towards a post-religious world.
when technology allows us to extend our lives as long as we wish, the need for salvation via invisible magic diminishes.it seems to me that religion is deeply influenced by parental authority and cultural norms.
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