For me I think getting people to see the truth is a worthy goal. I think you could use questions that witnesses can't answer and say "I was asked this in the ministry and wasn't sure how to answer" - You're not the bad guy - Just asking for help. They'll usually give you the canned WTS answer, but you put the question in their head and it will grow. A few good questions: How can we prove scripturally 144,000 is a literal number? Why do we say Jeruslaem was destroyed in 607? (tell them they brought out their encyclopedia.) Why do we think the 7 years of Nebuchadnezzar's insanity = the Gentile times? How could the "Great Crowd" be Earthly if they serve in the Sanctuary (greek - Naos) not temple (hieron)? These ar some I've done research on that are effective. The WTS answers to these questions are unsatisfactory at best. Anyone who researches these points to "help" you will generate more questions for themselves. Let me know if you need any specific help with these topics I've done some research and can point you to the a few places for help.
allelsefails
JoinedPosts by allelsefails
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My experience at the District Convention today - Appreciate your comments
by BonaFide ini know i am the one to constantly harp on this board how the organization has lost its "swagger" and the baptism and attendance is going down, and people are waking up.. not so fast.. the audience cried, i mean a lot of people cried when they played some of the songs from the new songbook.
some had bethel singers who sounded pretty good singing them.
so many after the program were saying how touched they were.. then the new release of the book showing how the book of acts prefigures the organization today.
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67
My Weak Agnostic Testimony
by besty inin terms of faith i have decided to give the invisible characters a rest for the time being.
the last set i had weren't really adding any value, and right now i'm happy with more rational answers to life's mysteries.. in my opinion religion was an early attempt to answer these mysteries and so inevitably we are accelerating towards a post-religious world.
when technology allows us to extend our lives as long as we wish, the need for salvation via invisible magic diminishes.it seems to me that religion is deeply influenced by parental authority and cultural norms.
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allelsefails
I think with or without belief in God people assign to themselves responsibility however they want. You can blame God, Satan, your parents, your third grade teacher or the random events of a Godless universe. Almost everyone lives in a state of self-delusion of one one kind or another. Either religious, psychological, emotional ... they all have an effect on our personal sense of responsibility. Mouthy - you're awesome.
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67
My Weak Agnostic Testimony
by besty inin terms of faith i have decided to give the invisible characters a rest for the time being.
the last set i had weren't really adding any value, and right now i'm happy with more rational answers to life's mysteries.. in my opinion religion was an early attempt to answer these mysteries and so inevitably we are accelerating towards a post-religious world.
when technology allows us to extend our lives as long as we wish, the need for salvation via invisible magic diminishes.it seems to me that religion is deeply influenced by parental authority and cultural norms.
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allelsefails
1 - subconscious fatalism and refusal to fully internalize accountability Can you explain this a little more? I think it is a good point, but I am a bear with little brains and big words bother me :-)
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67
My Weak Agnostic Testimony
by besty inin terms of faith i have decided to give the invisible characters a rest for the time being.
the last set i had weren't really adding any value, and right now i'm happy with more rational answers to life's mysteries.. in my opinion religion was an early attempt to answer these mysteries and so inevitably we are accelerating towards a post-religious world.
when technology allows us to extend our lives as long as we wish, the need for salvation via invisible magic diminishes.it seems to me that religion is deeply influenced by parental authority and cultural norms.
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allelsefails
Belief in God = Organized Religion. Not for me. Religion leads to ridiculous actions - I can't disagree. I also don't believe in a traditional Christian/Jesus God necessarily. I never thought about telling Zeus why I picked Jehovah - interesting new thought. AS far as forever.... technology has provided us extended lives already. I'd like my life extended indefinitely. However a bomb at the wrong place will end the idea of forever for the atheist but not for the deist. Here is a quote from Thomas Jefferson that represents an interesting perspective: "I hold (without appeal to revelation) that when we take a view of the universe, in its parts, general or particular, it is impossible for the human mind not to perceive and feel a conviction of design, consummate skill, and indefinite power in every atom of its composition. The movements of the heavenly bodies, so exactly held in their course by the balance of centrifugal and centripetal forces; the structure of the Earth itself, with its distribution of lands, waters and atmosphere; animal and vegetable bodies, examined in all their minutest particles; insects, mere atoms of life, yet as perfectly organized as man or mammoth; the mineral substances, their generation and uses, it is impossible, I say, for the human mind not to believe, that there is in all this, design, cause and effect, up to an ultimate cause, a Fabricator of all things from matter and motion, their Preserver and Regulator, while permitted to exist in their present forms, and their regeneration into new and other forms. We see, too, evident proofs of the necessity of a superintending power, to maintain the universe in its course and order." I hold that "rational minds" can still believe in God's existence without the dogmatism of "religion".
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67
My Weak Agnostic Testimony
by besty inin terms of faith i have decided to give the invisible characters a rest for the time being.
the last set i had weren't really adding any value, and right now i'm happy with more rational answers to life's mysteries.. in my opinion religion was an early attempt to answer these mysteries and so inevitably we are accelerating towards a post-religious world.
when technology allows us to extend our lives as long as we wish, the need for salvation via invisible magic diminishes.it seems to me that religion is deeply influenced by parental authority and cultural norms.
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allelsefails
Besty I think your logic is good when it comes to God interfering in our lives. My brother died when he was 20 and I was 13. I hate to hear how God saved someone through some tragedy. Why did he save you, your friend, your relative, but not my brother? Screw that God. If God exists as creator who created humans with some future life as a possibility, he has proven that he has no interest in what we're doing now. He certainly didn't save certain people thru a war, but let millions of Jews go to the gas chamber. One scripture I have never argued with - Ecc. 9:11 - "time and unforseen occurrence befall them all" - that is good and bad things happen deal with it.
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67
My Weak Agnostic Testimony
by besty inin terms of faith i have decided to give the invisible characters a rest for the time being.
the last set i had weren't really adding any value, and right now i'm happy with more rational answers to life's mysteries.. in my opinion religion was an early attempt to answer these mysteries and so inevitably we are accelerating towards a post-religious world.
when technology allows us to extend our lives as long as we wish, the need for salvation via invisible magic diminishes.it seems to me that religion is deeply influenced by parental authority and cultural norms.
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allelsefails
Things have moved along quite a bit since my last real post. I do use probability in making decisions, but not all decisions. More than half of marriages end in divorce, but I still got married and have a hope it will last (13 yrs and counting). The odds don't really matter if your playing with house money. There is no disadvantage to belief and worship of God (as long as it does not lead to ridiculous and harmful actions). Certainly an atheist can live a life of altruism and love of neighbor. But if I live a life exactly the same, but believe the good I do is part of my worship to a loving God (of whom I have no proof)and say a few prayers (maybe heard maybe not) - What is the negative for me? Maybe I live forever, maybe I don't. The Atheist still has no hope of "forever".
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67
My Weak Agnostic Testimony
by besty inin terms of faith i have decided to give the invisible characters a rest for the time being.
the last set i had weren't really adding any value, and right now i'm happy with more rational answers to life's mysteries.. in my opinion religion was an early attempt to answer these mysteries and so inevitably we are accelerating towards a post-religious world.
when technology allows us to extend our lives as long as we wish, the need for salvation via invisible magic diminishes.it seems to me that religion is deeply influenced by parental authority and cultural norms.
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67
My Weak Agnostic Testimony
by besty inin terms of faith i have decided to give the invisible characters a rest for the time being.
the last set i had weren't really adding any value, and right now i'm happy with more rational answers to life's mysteries.. in my opinion religion was an early attempt to answer these mysteries and so inevitably we are accelerating towards a post-religious world.
when technology allows us to extend our lives as long as we wish, the need for salvation via invisible magic diminishes.it seems to me that religion is deeply influenced by parental authority and cultural norms.
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allelsefails
Those would be logical leaps. I am only referring to the atheist/creationist issue. I might think all religious people have it wrong. All organizations have it wrong. But if I worship God in a way that might be acceptable to him, then I still have the 1/10,000 chance of being right and having an after life. The atheist has only a 1/10,000 chance of being wrong, but if he is right he ends up the same as if I'm wrong. So we both have a 99.999% chance of ending up in the same place, yeah? At least I have the 1/10,000 chance of something more. ideas about christian God or denominations might make the odds longer, but the logic is the same. (I know better than to think belief is more logical, but I still like my odds.) PS - It is great to have a debate with someone who THINKS. I'm so used to JWs regurgitating the WTS it is truly refreshing. I love the Atheist begging for mercy at the pearly gates - I'd give him a 50% chance.
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67
My Weak Agnostic Testimony
by besty inin terms of faith i have decided to give the invisible characters a rest for the time being.
the last set i had weren't really adding any value, and right now i'm happy with more rational answers to life's mysteries.. in my opinion religion was an early attempt to answer these mysteries and so inevitably we are accelerating towards a post-religious world.
when technology allows us to extend our lives as long as we wish, the need for salvation via invisible magic diminishes.it seems to me that religion is deeply influenced by parental authority and cultural norms.
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allelsefails
To me the point of "If I'm wrong" I lose nothing is compelling. It is more like having a free chip and placing it on the 10,000/1 shot in the big race. You have nothing to lose, but everything to gain. However the point swings the other way when you talk about a high control group like JW's. If your "belief in God" causes you to make horrible decisions and waste huge portions of your life on fruitless activity then better the rational atheist life. But if your belief in God leads you to a life of love your neighbor as yourself and a pursuit of an altruistic lifestyle that brings you joy then there is nothing to lose. Prayer to a God who doesn't listen still has psychological benefits to the one praying. Belonging to a community of believers or church still has benefits if God is left out entirely. Again I lose nothing if I'm wrong, but gain everything if I'm right. Maybe .... agnostic believer - allelsefails
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67
My Weak Agnostic Testimony
by besty inin terms of faith i have decided to give the invisible characters a rest for the time being.
the last set i had weren't really adding any value, and right now i'm happy with more rational answers to life's mysteries.. in my opinion religion was an early attempt to answer these mysteries and so inevitably we are accelerating towards a post-religious world.
when technology allows us to extend our lives as long as we wish, the need for salvation via invisible magic diminishes.it seems to me that religion is deeply influenced by parental authority and cultural norms.
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allelsefails
For me I would change Pascal's Wager a little. It goes like this. If you're right - there is no God and we end at death. If you're wrong - there is a God and you end at death. (I don't believe in a fiery-torment God)If I'm right - there is a God and we have a chance at future life after death. If I'm wrong - there is no God and we end at death. The reason my balls are gone too is that Pascal's Wager allows you to be an agnostic believer. I can't prove it, but I'll act like God exists - why not? You only get one hand, but you can keep drawing cards until you die. (I'm still trying to draw into an inside straight.) Love your thoughts. Thanks. Allelsefails