I do reluctantly agree with the Jws about the issue raised in the Garden of Eden. Obviously (if you believe in the bible) The question looms large - Can man rule himself or does he need God? That is the question of Genesis. It would not be solved by killing Adam and Eve and Satan. It is not about what Satan did but what Adam did that we suffer for. It is not fair - obvious truth you can't disagree with. God has his own sense of fairness and righteousness not subject to our approval. "If" you believe in God at all you understand that he takes the "long view" a child dying of plague in 1340 or someone suffering today is no different. If he will resurect them the old life will be gone. There is no way to believe in God without this understanding. The price has to be paid by all of us for our imperfect state. If the Bible is BS then there is no answer just deal with it.
allelsefails
JoinedPosts by allelsefails
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Help me with question from my hubby..
by cognac inhe never asks me spiritual questions... but, he just did, and i don't know what to say.. he asked what the issue of sovereignty has to do with us?
why do we have to suffer because of what satan did?
satan has been proven a liar over and over again, so why do we have to keep paying the price?
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70 years = 607?
by allelsefails in70 years of captivity?.
i myself have always believed that when archaeology disagreed with the bible the bible must be right.
that is how i dismissed the idea that jerusalem was destroyed in 586/587 bce.
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allelsefails
Scholar - Why did Russell use the 606 - 536 when he beleived 536 was the year Babylon was overthrown? Not the year of the Jews return, but Babylons destruction. Of course his 1914 date was wrong because "0" year mistake which the WTS did not admit until the 1950's when achaeology proved the 536 date was wrong and it was 539 when babylon was destroyed. They had to scramble to make the new "truth" fit "facts". It is amazing how people will believe what they want to believe despite any facts presented. Scientologists, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses ... so different ... so the same.
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Things you may not know about The Watchtower and The Trinity
by UnDisfellowshipped inhere are some things you may not know, which the watchtower society teaches, in regards to the trinity/deity of christ:.
(if you want to find out more, i can post references later, when i have more time).
* jesus has the same nature as jehovah.. * jesus is the exact representation of god's being.. * jesus is much better than the angels.. * jesus can be called "god.".
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allelsefails
It is much easier to prove JWs are silly than to prove the trinity on its own merit. JK - This is an argument Christians have always had. I think it is still a result of our inability to understand as humans the nature of the Father and Son. Ther is only one God, but we should worship Jesus. How do you reconcile that = Jesus is God. I think an honest search of the earliest history of Chistianity shows there was no agreement on what books should even be in the bible much less what they taught about Jesus divinity. The council of Nicea in 325 AD claimed Jesus to be God but did not mention the Spirit or its place in the Godhead. .... Your post here is interesting because I believe many JWs have no idea what there religion teaches or have taught in the past.
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Further Punishements
by passwordprotected inpraise gathering 2009 is taking place in glasgow this weekend.
we've been given tickets to tonight's concert as a gift.
to explain, praise gathering is a concert with a full orchestra and 400 singers.
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allelsefails
Loosie - It is hypocritical for a witness to post on this site at all. She knows it, we all know it. If you support the Governing Body you would not read any of our posts here. They have condemned us all as apostates. They have never answered a single challenge to prove 1914, 144,000 = literal number, numerous false prophecies, pedophiles protected in their congs., their taking the lives of their own followers by condemning transplants, immunizations, blood transfusions, etc. Some witnesses try, but when they change their mind in NY how foolish will you look? I myself started my internet research with the idea to prove the WTS right. Now I feel like a fool. There is no evidence to be found anywhere suporting JWs "unique" beliefs and that is why we see the desperate attempts we see on this site. Reniaa - all my christian love to you, but you are very much on the fence. This makes your argument less than compelling. You should answer your PMs too.
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The Case for Unitarianism
by UnDisfellowshipped in* the bible teaches that there is only one true god, only one person who is almighty god, and this one person is the father.
(see john 17:3; john 5:37, 5:44; john 8:54; isaiah 63:15-16; malachi 1:6; 1st corinthians 8:6; ephesians 4:6).
(john 5:19-20; 5:30; 8:28; 12:49).
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allelsefails
I read your post above on the spirit. Very interesting. Raised a JW I've never ascribed the "Spirit" personality, but there are obviously scriptures that do exactly that. However for me the question arises - Why call it the "Holy Spirit"? What does that mean? What does the Bible calling it that reveal about what it/he/her is? Why does the Bible use Father, Son, and Spirit to describe them? Why does a person (the spirit) not have a unique personal name? Thanks for your well researched post and answers. I look forward to your response.
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The Case for Unitarianism
by UnDisfellowshipped in* the bible teaches that there is only one true god, only one person who is almighty god, and this one person is the father.
(see john 17:3; john 5:37, 5:44; john 8:54; isaiah 63:15-16; malachi 1:6; 1st corinthians 8:6; ephesians 4:6).
(john 5:19-20; 5:30; 8:28; 12:49).
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allelsefails
You've given me a lot to think about. I'll do little pieces of responses as I have something useful to add here. When responding to my question of "God by Nature" you used the illustration of husband and wife. They are both clearly human by nature neither "above" the other in abities only in position/resposibility. However one is the husband and one is the wife they are not the same (as my wife and I will attest to). I do believe the "nature of God" is in the Son. Again that is the only way to understand the relationship - my son is by nature my genetic code - he is me, but uniquely different. He has a different position and personality than me, but he is not "me"....... I the "father" am God. He, my son,(even if he is omnipotent) is the Lord Jesus not the God Jesus (1 COR 8:6) He is subserviant to me. He does my will not his own. He does not know all that I know. (Mark 13:32 - International Standard Version - "No one knows when that day or hour will come-not the angels in heaven, not the Son, but only the Father.)Yes my son has the potential of me (Father = God), But not the position of me (Father = God). I would be curious too on what basis the holy spirit is scripturally ascribed to the Godhead. A duality more scriptural perhaps? Thanks again. Allelsefails
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If christ loved everyone then why don't christians
by loosie inlove or at least tolerate everyone?.
i had a 13 yr old friend of my daughters visit this weekend.
she told me she was going to bible camp.
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allelsefails
Cameo-d - That's what I'm talkin' about. A realy good quote from a silly movie - "A person is smart. People are dumb, panicky dangerous animals and you know it. Fifteen hundred years ago everybody knew the Earth was the center of the universe. Five hundred years ago, everybody knew the Earth was flat." Groups of people always have negatives. Christians, Muslims, Atheists, Academics, WASPS, Blacks, Jews, Asians, Hispanics, Arabs, Aryans, Democrats, Republicans, Communists, Nazis, etc...... Something is wrong with people, but a person (of any religion, ethnicity, etc..) can be fully loved and respected.
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The Case for Unitarianism
by UnDisfellowshipped in* the bible teaches that there is only one true god, only one person who is almighty god, and this one person is the father.
(see john 17:3; john 5:37, 5:44; john 8:54; isaiah 63:15-16; malachi 1:6; 1st corinthians 8:6; ephesians 4:6).
(john 5:19-20; 5:30; 8:28; 12:49).
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allelsefails
I don't have time tonight to put togather a thoughtful answer, but could you describe exactly what the "trinity" you believe in is? Some views are slightly different than others and I am always curious to hear it described. Can you also describe the phrase "God by nature"? I think I understand, but want to make sure. Obviously the nature of God is beyond a human's full comprehension, but the journey to understanding is valuable for itself. Thanks again for your thought provoking post.
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If christ loved everyone then why don't christians
by loosie inlove or at least tolerate everyone?.
i had a 13 yr old friend of my daughters visit this weekend.
she told me she was going to bible camp.
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allelsefails
I always remember Jesus wasn't a christian. He was a Jew! He thought going to synagogue and reading from Moses was a good way to spend your saturday. His brother James was known until the day he died for praying in the Jewish temple everyday (even though he was running the local christian congregation). Christians who judge are not following Christ. Intolerance was never taught by Christ. Good job teaching tolerance to your young one, don't let her get dragged into a situation of "us" and "them". All wars, oppressions, slaveries, have started with "us" and "them".
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The Case for Unitarianism
by UnDisfellowshipped in* the bible teaches that there is only one true god, only one person who is almighty god, and this one person is the father.
(see john 17:3; john 5:37, 5:44; john 8:54; isaiah 63:15-16; malachi 1:6; 1st corinthians 8:6; ephesians 4:6).
(john 5:19-20; 5:30; 8:28; 12:49).
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allelsefails
I need to do a little research to answer intelligently. Here is my brief answer though. I have always believed that God has revealed himself in every way we need to know him. To use the words "father and son" to describe the relationship only makes sense if the father gave life to the son. Otherwise the illustration of their relationship is meaningless. In the society of people Jesus preached to they would clearly understand that a son would be in a lower position than his father. Father is greater than Son no matter how you look at it. As John 1:1 says Jesus was with God, Jesus was of a divine substance. [In my research I have found that the most accurate rendering of the verse. I disgree with WTS "a god" it diminishes Jesus, but using this scripture to prove the trinity is just as flawed. Jesus is the Son therefore he has inherited the same type of power and abilities from his father, but that doesn't make them both the same God.] As 1 Cor 8:6 describes our relationship to the father and son - "yet for us there is only one God, the Father, from whom everything came into being and for whom we live. And there is only one Lord, Jesus the Messiah, through whom everything came into being and through whom we live." Note the different roles they play in creation. We exist "FROM" our only God the father but "THROUGH" the lord Jesus. God the Father is the source and the Lord Jesus is the channel used to accomplish the work of creation. As I said I will do more research on the above points you mentioned and look up the scriptures and post when I have a more thought out answer. I also have a "bible canon" issue that I'm still working on, If I feel it has merit I will post as well thanks for your insite and thoughts here. Very good logic.