Posts by indireneed

8

Will JW's Emulate Catholics?

by Kenneson in

jw
friends

news article in today's paper is entitled "credit catholics for cleaning house" by stanley crouch (new york daily news).

"somehow in our nation we are almost always called upon to lead the way when it comes to things of human concern.. "that is why, after all these years of the catholic church's hiding behind cathedral doors, miters and robes, we should be glad that boston's cardinal bernard law has ignored the dictates of rome and called on his clergy to report to the police all the charges of sexual abuse of children by priests..............."

indireneed

The more I think about it, the more I realize the JW religion is very much like the Catholic religion. A couple things off the top of my mind:

Their belief that their organization is directly led by god.
The belief that their writings are inspired and are basically 'infallible' except by their change
Their doctrinal beliefs.

Of course, I don't mean to imply that other religions don't have this, but the JWs and Catholics combine all these things. I also don't want to imply that either group is bad, just that the JWs have adopted the same ideals/organization as their most dreaded enemy.

15

1914: A lucky guess? Or divine inspiration?

by Gopher in

we know the wt society has a long history of prophecies, especially regarding dates.

almost 100% of such prophecy was in error.. it seems though, that they got a date right by foretelling that 1914 would be "the end of the world as we know it".

yes, they changed the meaning of 1914 several times.

indireneed

I don't think their 'prediction' of 1914 was anything out of the ordinary.

Imagine the number of Millenial religions at the turn of the 20th century. Each had their own date scheme, and each had their own way of seeing things.

Now, with hundreds of Millenial cults, and hundreds of predicted dates, one had to come true. Well, 1914 was pivotal on the world stage, so the JWs decided to abandon their 20 other dates and go with that one.

'Biblical' chronology is crap. I don't mean the Bible, I mean trying to use it to predict things. Why don't you just go to Nostradamus and you can convince yourself that maybe he is the Son of God. Or perhaps, the Mayans, who predicted the end of the world pretty close to know.

1914 is what it is - a date that the JWs came up with but were completely wrong on. It doesn't mean they were right - there is no spectacular change in society since 1914. In fact, we are just now becoming more like the period before 1914 'globalization' wise. We are not in a new era, we are just in one of the repitious cycles.

Don't forget, there have been apocalyptic soothsayers ever since the Bible was written.

16

Destroy or Reform the WT?

by ThiChi in

jw
friends

i ask this question: lets say for a moment the jw world does come crashing down (very unlikely).

who would fill the void left by the jws?

more moonies?

indireneed

I don't think that it is a question of reform or destruction . . . the doctrines of the WT are for the most part non-destructive. What becomes destructive is their ability to change people's lives and to assert authority. This causes people to refuse blood transfusions, etc. However, in itself, having separate beliefes cannot be construed as bad, even if they cause a separation (look at the foundation of the US - freedom of religion, or the Amish, or perhaps the Mormons, etc. etc.)

So, it becomes a matter of how people are affected by their time in the WT. Or perhaps more importantly, how they affect others. I am affected becaues my wife is a JW and that makes my life difficult. I wish she would see some of the glaring inconsistencies, but she can't. My biggest problem is that the WT is setting itself up as an authority when it is not.

Although this is more a ramble than a post, I will just summarize by saying that it is not the doctrines that are bad, even the blood portion, but the tactics that are the problem (i.e. we are right, everyone else is wrong, hate those others). If people need these tactics, I guess then the JW serves its purpose. If people need to be told what to do, then I guess it's good. Much like any other religion, state, etc., it serves for some but not for others. I wish the GB was forced to accept their humanity. I just can't stand people who are not humble and think they have the only correct thoughts . . .

In conclusion, the WT can be reformed, and it will certainly not be destroyed, but not to make another 'god centered' organization that controls its members. It's just pointless.

60

Cross or Stake, which is biblically true??

by butalbee in

can somebody please explain to me biblically where it says jesus died on a stake and not a cross?

need theological details, please.

prove your stakely beliefs...

indireneed

My brother did a lot of research on this for me, and I trust his conclusion since he is a distinguished researcher and scholar of Roman and Greek history.

While ther is no direct proof for the use of the cross (and I'm not going to argue whether or not the cross was used), the WT's methodology on defining the Greek is wrong.

They state that there is no indication that the word was used to mean more than a stake before the New Testament. However, this is completely false. I do not have the exact names now, but there are four to five (at least) references to a stauros being made of two sticks perpendicular to one another before the time of Christ (several centuries) thus legitimating the use of stauros for either a stake or a cross.

Thus, to conclude using the WT's inferences is speculation, not fact as they would wish you to think. I don't care about doctrine, I simply dislike bad scholarship.

7

The Prophet

by jeannie in

hi i am new to this forum, so please bear with me.

i have a question from the book of john.

john is asked if he is the christ, he replies no, then he is asked if he is the prophet, he replies no.

indireneed

I certainly don't claim to be all that knowledgeable about this, but I remember reading a few things here and there.

First of all, it's important to remember that there were many conflicting Judaisms at the time - one of which was the group that took all the dead sea scrolls and fled.

Each group had its own ideas, much like all of Christianity and any other religion today. Some were very apocalyptic (like the JWs), others were very rule oriented (the Pharisees), others were skeptics (the Sadducees).

Anyway, everyone had their own interpretation of the old testament. all new of the promise of a Messiah, but they also knew of a reference to a 'great Prophet' by Moses. This Prophet was supposed to come at some future date (how vague can you get).

With only really one reference, this prophet could be related to one of the former prophets (Elijah, etc.) to the Messiah, or someone else. Everyone had their own opinion.

Another interesting note is that the Essnes (The dead sea scrolls) believed there would be two Messiahs - a king and a priest. The NT rolls these up into one, and Paul gives an explanation of how this is possible, by using Melchizadek as an example.

I find it interesting how religion has always been disputed - there was never one path, no matter how much any religion wants you to believe . . . and hence the different versions of Christ's life.

13

marrying a jw

by dorian in

hi i really need some help on this i would like to marry a jw female and she is disfellowshiped her family wants her to be reinstated and so do i but i would like to marry her also any help at all

indireneed

If the worst were to happen and your mate would return to the fold, your isolation will depend on the congregation in question. I spent a lot of time going to meetings with my wife before I decided I couldn't stand it any longer. However, they elder who we were friends with is still a geniunely nice person to me and listened to my reasons calmly and cooly. He is an excellent person, and I stopped going without a bad taste in my mouth as many others have.

Just remember, that it is a religion, although very controlling, and there are good and bad people. Just be ready and understand all the intricacies of what they will try and get you to sign in on.

Some advice - sit down and read Crisis of Conscience together. Plus, read a few other books together that take a neutral view on JW history. Don't read inflammatory, hearsay books, as they might convince your mate that everyone is out to 'persecute' the JWs.

Firm yourself up - it's better to understand first than to understand too late. I scrwed up - I didn't understand what my wife was getting into, and now I will pay for a long time. Hopefully, in the end, things will get better. But its a hard struggle.

13

marrying a jw

by dorian in

hi i really need some help on this i would like to marry a jw female and she is disfellowshiped her family wants her to be reinstated and so do i but i would like to marry her also any help at all

indireneed

The fact is, it all depends on what the ex-JW wants out of life. A real JW would not marry a non-JW. It is forbidden, although it happens a lot.
If you marry, and your significant returns to the fold, then your life will become very difficult. You will have to learn either to be JW or you will have to come to terms with completely opposite world views.

If you marry, and your significant other does not want to return, then your marriage will likely be strengthened by the fact that they made a decision to be with you rather than with an organization.

Just remember, it all depends on whether you feel marriage is right. If so, go for it. Talk about it first though - lay the ground rules. Explain that you will never by a JW and thus if he or she returns, you will have no part of it. That way, it is clear up front. And mention you will not let you kids be raised JWs.

11

marrying jw

by dorian in

jw
friends

hey i have a questio i am a non jw and i would like to marry a jw that is disfelllowshiped because of me any help possible

indireneed

Just a point to add to Frenchy's good advice . . .

If the worst were to happen and your mate would return to the fold, your isolation will depend on the congregation in question. I spent a lot of time going to meetings with my wife before I decided I couldn't stand it any longer. However, they elder who we were friends with is still a geniunely nice person to me and listened to my reasons calmly and cooly. He is an excellent person, and I stopped going without a bad taste in my mouth as many others have.

Just remember, that it is a religion, although very controlling, and there are good and bad people. Just be ready and understand all the intricacies of what they will try and get you to sign in on.

Some advice - sit down and read Crisis of Conscience together. Plus, read a few other books together that take a neutral view on JW history. Don't read inflammatory, hearsay books, as they might convince your mate that everyone is out to 'persecute' the JWs.

Firm yourself up - it's better to understand first than to understand too late. I scrwed up - I didn't understand what my wife was getting into, and now I will pay for a long time. Hopefully, in the end, things will get better. But its a hard struggle.

11

marrying jw

by dorian in

jw
friends

hey i have a questio i am a non jw and i would like to marry a jw that is disfelllowshiped because of me any help possible

indireneed

The fact is, it all depends on what the ex-JW wants out of life. A real JW would not marry a non-JW. It is forbidden, although it happens a lot.

If you marry, and your significant returns to the fold, then your life will become very difficult. You will have to learn either to be JW or you will have to come to terms with completely opposite world views.

If you marry, and your significant other does not want to return, then your marriage will likely be strengthened by the fact that they made a decision to be with you rather than with an organization.

Just remember, it all depends on whether you feel marriage is right. If so, go for it. Talk about it first though - lay the ground rules. Explain that you will never by a JW and thus if he or she returns, you will have no part of it. That way, it is clear up front. And mention you will not let you kids be raised JWs.

36

Okay Bible Supporters: Support this One

by FreePeace in

jw
friends

there have been so many bible thumping posts lately, i thought i would offer an anti-bible article from my truthquest website.

i wait with bated breath to see how bible supporters will rationalize and explain this one.. .

atrocities of the bible: the midianites .

indireneed

This kind of question always pissed me off when I was being indoctrinated in a very religious, very strict, very Protestant primary school. Such a loving God was so inspiring of fear and self-hatred.

My sister-in-law brought up a pretty good point about the Bible - old and new testament. In order to fully identify with the ideals and concepts held within its pages, it is necesarry to divorce oneself from modern society and adopt a very anitquated concept of good and evil.

For example, the paradise that so many JWs are looking forward to is a rural person's paradise - it is not what a modern thinking person would consider paradise. Does everyone want to be a farmer? Does everone want to live near Jersulam (I shiver at the thought . . .) The fact is, this is a world without government, without roads, without technology, without division of labor. Thus, in order for there to be roads, etc. Jesus would have to intervene since each person will be tending to his own needs.

Anyway, in order to understand the Old Testament, one cannot look at the good/evil context that we see today. It was not evil to destroy people and rape their wives - this was normal. But today, we like to think we are more civilized. I like to think that too. That's why I can't always make excusese for what the merciful god did of the Bible.

If the Bible is truly a 'timeless' book, why do we need to make up excuses? Why do we have to explain to ourselves why god would kill tens of thousands of people simply for existing in their ignorance? Of course, that's what JWs look forward to everyday. I can't wait till god's mercy is shown so explicitly . . .

Oh well. If they want to live in the past, I guess it's their prerogrative. They should start their farm life soon though - maybe they should merge with the Amish.