Posts by bohm

233

Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

by kpop in

so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

bohm

Maybe I misunderstood you. Perhaps we can try over and see if we can nail down where we agree or not.

First off, I am (obviously) against censorship as well, as well as letting the various apologists for Islam get screentime (such as Glenn Greenwald or Reza Aslan). I am also against deplatforming. For some reason it is assumed in this thread and other places I somehow accept or apologize for these things and I can't tell where this confusion originated.

My issue is that the only reformers I am aware of (Ali, Newaz, Rizvi or, to mention someone without a Muslim background, Sam Harris) are in some form or another combining a critique of Islam with the idea Islam can and should reform into a more benign form. I would very much suggest you read Alis report to get an idea about the things she is proposing.

But that idea, that Islam can and should be reformed into a moderate form, can insofar as I see it only be promoted if one believes that Islam CAN exist in such a form. I.e. there is a "moderate Islam".

Similar to the above critics of Islam, I don't think moderate Islam follows easily from the Muslim scriptures, which arguably combines the worst of Judaism (legalism and brutality) with the worst of Christianity (promotion of faith-based thinking and dispensationalism), but as far as I understand them they all believe such a form of Islam can nevertheless exist, even if few "true moderates" exist today.

I do not know if you agree or disagree with the above points?

This gets me to the point about what it means to be a "good Muslim". I don't think that the premise that a "good Muslim" is by definition bloodthirsty is compatible with the view moderate Islam exists. We will essentially be saying: Come be a moderate Muslim. Sure, you won't be a good Muslim, but you will be moderate.

I don't think that this is the view that Ali, Nawaz or Rizvi is promoting, that is why I believe they too think there are ways to be a "good muslim" that does not involve acceptance of Sharia or the darker parts of the Quran, even though it requires mental gymnastics to adopt such a definition -- but fortunate, if there is one think religion teaches its members, it is mental gymnastics.

This again comes down to how obvious the view of Islam that e.g. ISIS is promoting follows necessarily from any reasonable definition of "A Muslim". According to e.g. ISIS it is 1:1; you can't have Islam without the view they are promoting. Proposing you can be a Muslim and not believing hands should be cut off for stealing is like saying you can be geologist and believe the earth is flat.

I don't think that is true (despite my comments regarding the morals of the Quran) and where I again refer to the beliefs of reformers and scholars such as Haykel. Fundamentally my disagreement with ISIS on this view comes down to how they see Islam as offering a 100% coherent view of the world and I don't. If you don't believe Islam is coherent, you got to cut things out and bend the truth to make it mesh with reality, and so you might as well cut out the things that prevent you from being a moderate. Again I refer to the discussion found in e.g. Alis policy proposal.

233

Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

by kpop in

so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

bohm

FMF: I am confused about what the program you propose will actually interface with Muslims in a practical sense.

The only people mentioned in the above that have contact with Muslims are the critics (I assume you refer to e.g. Ali, Nawaz, Ali Rizvi, etc.), but you seem to believe these critics got Islam fundamentally wrong (they believe Islam can exist in a more benign form) and are proposing something which will not work (reform & enlightenment).

Your prosal is to replace these critics with others who are more hardline and who thereby "shame" Muslims out of Islam?

Is there any evidence that such a proposal has worked before?

233

Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

by kpop in

so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

bohm

That's a good theory, I just don't see how you can do that.

Okay, Ali is wrong. What do you propose to do then?

233

Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

by kpop in

so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

bohm

Well the question really is why do we want to save it? What does it add to humanity or civilization?

Very little, obviously outweighed by the harms... I don't want to "save" Islam at all.

I think Islam need to be annihilated or at least diminished enough not to be a threat for a few decades.

Assuming you are talking about something non-violent, I agree that the long-term goal is the diminishing of Islam as well as all other forms of harmful superstition. Where we disagree is with how that is accomplished. I agree with e.g. Hirsi Ali that the best way to accomplish this is from within, i.e. similar to how the Catholic Church of medieval time was reformed.

Having studied it a bit more, I also think that those seeking to reform it are well intentioned but doomed to failure. There zero evidence that it can ever be reformed or will ever be reformed and part of that is the obstructive behavior of the left to even having rational discussion on the matter.

I think that the existence of actual reformers such that Majiid Nawaz is an example that there are Muslims who are promoting a more benign form of Islam; at the very least I think it should be tried and these efforts supported. But okay, let's accept that Hirsi Ali or Majiid Nawaz got it all wrong with the idea we should and can reform Islam. We still got to do something:

If not reform, how do you propose we annihilate or diminish Islam?

We can't fix Islam because people insist on wasting all the time debating if there is even a problem with it (when there clearly is). People like you do that bohm when your ideological conditioning to deny all issues kicks in.

How can I convince you that I believe the things I write again and again?

233

Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

by kpop in

so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

bohm

well, to make it clear, 1, for obvious reasons (presumably, someone who does nothing or little of what Mohammed did is less Islamic than someone who tries to do much, by the common definition of the word Islamic).

I would recommend you to read the report. What do you think about her suggestion that there are moderate Muslims and reformers with whom meaningful alliances can be build?

233

Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

by kpop in

so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

bohm

Incidentally, Ayan Hirsi Ali has a recent report on radical Islam (she calls it political Islam) and the various branches of Islam which she too believes exists; these are incidentally the same distinctions as Bernhard Haykel makes in the work I shared earlier though he is more interested in the historical/political context and Hirsi Ali focuses on policy. I don't share her optimism with regards to Trump, but the distinctions she is making (and her analysis of contemporary Islamism) is exactly the same as those I am making on this thread. For instance, from the conclusion:

The administration should recognize the diversity of Muslim citizens and support Islamic reformers here and around the world.
In reaching out to the Muslim American community, the administration should ally itself with genuine Muslim moderates and reformers, not with “nonviolent” Islamists. Nonviolent Islamists are engaged in subversion: they seek to replace the US Constitution and rule of law with sharia

My point is that the idea that we can recognize people as both Muslims and moderates is one she shares. Do you believe she too is wrong?

http://www.hoover.org/sites/default/files/research/docs/ali_challengeofdawa_final_web.pdf

(Before she is quoted to "disprove" me, please keep in mind that save some optimism with regards to Trump what she is writing on Islam and Islams relationship to terrorism is in alignment with what I have written on this thread and elsewhere)

233

Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

by kpop in

so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

bohm

Simon: I did actually already answered that question when LUHE asked it of me.

I am confused about how I can participate in this thread but since you asked...

My answer was that I think it is wrong to treat Islam as a single entity, etc. etc., similar to how I think it is wrong to ask if the Catholics or the JWs are more like Jesus (you can point to ways they are similar and ways they are dissimilar). But if you want a simple yes/no answer then sure, I will go with yes.

9

Great way to show the world your not extremists.

by pleaseresearch in

i really don't know what to expect of this.

they are being labelled extremists in russia and are close to being banned.

so the show that they aren't extremists they encourage all jw's worldwide to bombard the kremlin and court with millions on letters..

bohm

The goal is not to affect Kremlin, which they can't in either case, but to use this as a PR opportunity. It is no coincidence that JWTV and their literature is so full of stories of JWs being oppressed in Russia under Soviet rule as this serves several purposes

Reinforce the basic narrative JWs are oppressed/persecuted by "Satan"
That worldly political systems cannot be trusted; that current stability/freedom can quickly be taken away
That events in the first part of the 20th century are connected to today's events, i.e. 1914 is not that far away as this is all one continious unfolding of persecution fitting nicely into their view of world history (this is one more reason why they use older JWs, asides the obvious emotional appeal)

Letter-writing is IMO quite brilliant as it makes it very personal to those who write these letters, the letters can be read on assemblies, and it makes it seem like JWs care more about other JWs than anyone else.

233

Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

by kpop in

so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

bohm

Simon: If you don't believe it as written, why not simply restate it? I would be happy to look for your question and try to answer it but quite frankly, I am confused as to what arguments and opinions on this subject and which are okay and which are off limits, and it does not make sense to continue a discussion which is against posting guidelines.

233

Number of Muslims protesting London terrorist attack = ZERO. Number of Muslims protesting forced Mosque closure in France = HUNDREDS

by kpop in

so it is now two days after another islamic terrorist attack.

how many muslims are in the streets protesting and condemning this evil?

how many are marching in all the big cities condemning this in mass protests?.

bohm

Ruby: I think that what people are objecting to about Islam is that ideas like child marriage shouldn't be in currency but that they are makes Islam reprehensible. I think this sort of reasoning is pretty cogent don't you?

Yes, as I have written many times, I think the Quran is full of things I find morally indefensible. But this is not the topic I raised several pages back, which was the assertion that good Muslims have to rape, something which I remain unconvinced of.

Since this or other of my views (although I am not sure which) are too controversial for this forum I cannot comment further. So much for open debate, I guess.