AwSnap: If you ask me, please start as many threads ask you like about 607! Plenty of lurkers have exactly the same questions you do, and its a bit of a needle in the haystack kind of problem to find the good stuff. That goes out to you as well Titus, I have read the site you linked to and i think its very interesting, but many of the claims are quite problematic - try to start a couple of threads about some of the things on the thread you find very convincing. By the way - WELCOME!.
Posts by bohm
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95For those who researched 607...
by AwSnap indid you use wt dates as well as things found from a secular perspective?
if a witness was researching the 607 dates strictly from watchtower info, would it still become clear they are wrong?
or does the wtbs *make* the dates add up...?
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95
For those who researched 607...
by AwSnap indid you use wt dates as well as things found from a secular perspective?
if a witness was researching the 607 dates strictly from watchtower info, would it still become clear they are wrong?
or does the wtbs *make* the dates add up...?
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bohm
AwSnap: First off, there are a LOT of complicated details around the chronology question, but i would say that the complications arrise from apologists who try to sidetrack the argument into needless details because the facts are against them. If you go into these details you need to be very bright and brave to look through the smoke. I havent gone through the process, but i doubt i would have been able to do it :-(. However, and i say this as an atheist, i think the bible is pretty clear on the point, so thats the route i personally have desided to go.
First make them agree to the statement: 'there are no secular evidence (historical, archeological) which point to 607. Everything point to 586-7'. That should be quite easy, since its pretty much written directly in 'insight to the scriptures'. Notice there is a lot more evidence than described in insight, and what they write about get the usual 'jw treatment', but that is a side point. Anyway, now you can properly make them agree that the only reason one should accept 607 is because the jw view of jeremiahs 70 years is the only one supported by the bible.
This should open up to the second part of the discussion: The jw view of jeremiahs 70 years. here you need to go into A FEW details, since you need to know both the jw view of the 70 years AND one or more alternative viewpoints to get a proper understanding of it. Fortunately this is quite easy, but it needs to be done. Basically the questions you need answer to is: (I hope my suggestions are right, please check it for yourself!)
a) What did the 70 years consist of? (jw: Total destruction, alt.: a CONDITIONAL prophecy with 70 years of servitude to babylon, destruction if jews did not comply, but in all cases not complete desolation of every person in judea)
b) To whom did it apply? (jw: Only israel, alt: a lot of countries as the bible say black on white)
c) When? (jw: 607-537, alt: 609-539, 70 years in all instances)
d) What event define their beginning? (jw: hell of a good question, i believe they think it was a particular deportation to egypt, but you might want to ask your friends. alt: Babylonians arose to world domination)
e) What event define their end? (jw: Jews praying at a specific temple site, alt: babylons fall and daniel praying for forgiveness).
After you got these answers pegged down both on the jw interpretation of jeremiah and the 'alternative', you are in for a real shocker: no big book are required, just pick up the bible and read the book of jeremiah (which must be the ultimative source on jeremiahs), especially the chapters after 25. Keep the above answers in mind, and ask yourself which viewpoint is the most in line with the bible. It was a great surprice to me how easy it all fit with the non-jw viewpoint, for example the image of the wodden and iron burden jeremiah put around his neck.
I think that is the path you want to stear them unto: Ask them to answer questions a-e) above based on the bible, perhaps offer quotes in the bible that are not in line with the jw point of view.
To flesh out what i have called the alternative chronology, you should read this excelent book compiled by Doug Mason: http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/watchtower/bible/186301/1/New-study-on-the-Babylonian-Exile-and-without-chronologies , he also wrote a couple of great posts a couple of months ago with 'hard' questions to the jw chronology.
JW litterature is IMHO not that inconsistent when it comes to chronology.. its just horribly complicated, confusing and leave out all the important stuff. Thats why i recommend the bible. One thing in print they get 100% wrong though: The king list from 539-607. If you ask them to tell you when the kings ruled, they wont be able to do so because its hidden very well, and if they finally manage to do it, the king list will point to one date for the fall or jerusalem: 587.
I hope i didnt stray to far from the spirit of your question... and i hope i am correct with regard to my answers to a-d)! its a couple of weeks since i read up on it last time :-).
Sincerely and please write how it went if you feel like it!
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I'm back
by stuckinlimbo ini was breakingfree, but have forgotten my password and no longer have access to the email address that was attached to that account, which i haven't used for over a year (i have just been reading as a guest and not posting).
my new name is probably more appropriate, i don't see myself being able to break completely free for some time.
me and my hubby are out (inactive, successfully faded) but rest of the family in and very devout.
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bohm
Hey and welcome :-) . There are two cases: if the pdf is on the internet, go to the page where you have found it, right click on the link to it and select "Copy link location". If you paste the link here people can download it (you might want to use the small "link" icon in the top botton row if you feel fancy and want to make the link clickable, but you dont need to).
In the other case your pdf is on your computer, thats a bit harder. In that case i recommend that you upload it to a free upload service like http://www.2shared.com/ and then post the link to the page you uploaded it to. Sorry it is so complicated.
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2010 predictions!
by bohm inhere are my predictions for 2010:.
ted jarez will not pass away.
this will prevent any major reforms or restructuring and very much make this another "buisness as usual" year.new light on blood: there will be an article on blood; it will change the blood policy in a minor way as to loosen it up, but that will not be explicitly stated.
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bohm
Here are my predictions for 2010:
- Ted Jarez will not pass away. This will prevent any major reforms or restructuring and very much make this another "buisness as usual" year.
- New light on blood: There will be an article on blood; it will change the blood policy in a minor way as to loosen it up, but that will not be explicitly stated. It will continue to be horrible contradictory, but fewer people will be DF'ed.
- This years drama will again have a modern theme, and the internet (youtube, google or facebook) will be mentioned as a joke one way or another. The focus of the convention will be on family and equating family with congregation.
- The non-study edition of the watchtower and awake will merge.
- There will be another major layoff to streamline the printing-process to bring down cost.
- JCannon will reappear in a new reincarnation. He wont have learned to sing, though.
- A much smaller rise in the number of partakers in the memorial than the past years.
Okay, pretty lame predictions, but right now i feel the WT is torn between being a company and a religion, and does not know where to put its feet. Besides, im a noob without apostate-superpowers and my chrystal ball is broken. I would have loved to look at the 09 prediction threads, but i could not find any. Please fill in your own predictions so we have something to laugh at in a year!
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Climate Greenhouse Warming Equation Wrong
by VM44 ini mentioned this over in the thread.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/186270/1/climate-change-nee-global-warming-strkes-again.
i thought the subject should have a thread of its own.. researcher: basic greenhouse equations "totally wrong".
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bohm
Frankie, the problem is that at the core of M.'s explanation is the formula Eu = Su/2. M does not explain how he arrive at that result - is it based on first principles, is it a guess, what is it? Its just there, and thats why he cant get pass peer review since that requires you got to explain what the hell you are doing.
I dont understand why people attempt to support the paper by posting graphs, the problem is that there are equations and definitions of laws that are *really* odd.
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Climate Greenhouse Warming Equation Wrong
by VM44 ini mentioned this over in the thread.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/jw/friends/186270/1/climate-change-nee-global-warming-strkes-again.
i thought the subject should have a thread of its own.. researcher: basic greenhouse equations "totally wrong".
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bohm
The problem is the author get fundamental thermodynamics wrong, thats why noone will puplish his paper. M. applies Kirchhoff law to a system where it does not apply, and get unphysical results. Others have puplished links that elaborate on these points.
And why the hell is it written in word? it makes my eyes bleed!
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Your Gravatar! Please describe it...................................................
by finallysomepride inmine: the purple dude with the long high set penis or the long low set nose.
lol.
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bohm
Richard Dawkins, the angry atheist.
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WHAT HAST THOU DONE? ...THY BROTHER'S BLOOD CRIETH UNTO ME!
by Perry inand he said, what hast thou done?
the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.
- gen. 4: 10. starting in 1973 the united states started allowing the murdering of it's children.
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bohm
Actually, many other nations has done better after they began doing abortions. Clearly this is no coinsidence! I could do the graphs, but it would make me cry like Glenn Beck.
MORE ABORTIONS EQUALS LESS DEBT!
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JESUS BORN ON CHRISTMAS
by lgadsden indoes anyone have the scripture that proves christ was born 12-25 and the admonition to celebrate it?.
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bohm
IGADSDEN: Jesus was not born that date, nobody would say so. you might as well ask where the scripture say the earth is a square.
Do you believe that everything one believes should be based soundly on the scripture? what happends if it is not so, and you go out and teach that to others?
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New study on the Babylonian Exile, and without chronologies
by Doug Mason ini have placed my new study into the babylonian exile at.
http://www.jwstudies.com/they_would_not_listen_version_1.pdf.
when i set out on the journey of writing this study, i was determined that i would not discuss chronologies or dating systems.
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bohm
Great job. I am reading it now -- i allways liked your posts on babylonian chronology, and this seem like the same high quality. Im looking forward to reading this between christmas and new year.
And why are there no more comments?! this got to be bumped up so newbies do not think this site is all about global warming and our resident messias-in-a-drag!