awildflower

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Posts by awildflower

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  20

  unique deathless generation---we were soooo special....

  by oompa in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  millions now living will never die!

  (i sure heard this a lot over the years).....what a mindfluck!

  !...i was spoonfed this from the birth, but you must feel really stoopid if bought into this as an adult and joined this outfit.....(let me know, cause i would feel stoopid and feel stoopid for not walking in 1995 when they decided the the generation of 1914 was not a real generation)....notice they continue this mindfluck teaching even after 1995....oompa.

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  awildflower

  Even after leaving the teachings of the wts, I still feel like I'm going to live forever. What is that?..........wf
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  27

  gimme a break!

  by stillin in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  it's persecution, i tell ya!

  ok, so i went out in service yesterday, ok, so i went to a meeting today.

  i'm not ready to just chunk out everything i've believed even if there's a lot wrong with the picture.

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  awildflower

  A paradise earth, living forever with animals and perfect people, world-wide peace, seeing dead loved ones again, a loving, international brotherhood that will unconditionally love you no matter what, the joy you will experience sharing your beliefs with others, shepards in the congregation to look after you and your children warmly and encouragingly, social activities that refresh........I was told that I could have all of that just by knowing Jehovah, his son Jesus and joining the only true religion on earth. Who wouldn't jump all over that, who on this board wasn't drawn in by all the love-bombing at first?

  To bad none of it turned out to be true..........wf
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  31

  A Day With Betty

  by sacolton in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  another day with betty (dorothy) dunlap.

  first ... inside the nursing home:.

  it's really not this dark ... it's a very pretty foyer.. .

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  awildflower

  My experience with Betty was great. She genuinely was just so happy to have people around. When we walked into her apartment it was so neat and she has it decorated with pics of animals. She has a book shelf and said she likes to read her bible most but reads other things as well but it takes her so long because of her mind. I asked her questions about her and Ed's experience in Bethel. I asked specifically if others left at the time her and Ed and Ray and Cynthia left and she said "oh yes, many". She said "you know they don't like it up there when you don't say exactly what they say and do exactly what they do". I thought that was funny but nothing's changed in that department huf folks!

  Shopping was a challange. She wants clothes that cover her entirely like you can see in the pic she wants tops that go up her neck and long sleeve. Well because it's summer I didn't see anything like that but like Shawn said we are going to try the higer-end stores next week.

  She was able to call and talk to Ray and Cynthia from my cell phone. So Shawn, Betty and me got to talk to them. I was so thrilled talking to Cynthia. Some of you may already know that her and Ray do Bible Study in different homes, all taking turns cooking food for their Bible Study. It was her turn to cook. She was making Polanesian (sp?) rice. She described how they take turns going to homes and they will read a verse/chapter in the Bible and they go around one at a time and say what it means to them personally. I told her it sounded so fun and that's how Bible study should be! She said they are in Phillipians right now.

  She said her and Ray don't travel anymore because of health but if they could they would come see Betty and they were very appreciative of any help given in that regard. I encourage all to send her cards. She was so excited thinking she would get something in the mail.

  This isn't just about 'Betty'. A lot of people waste away in these nursing homes without anyone to come see them. Granted some of them with their mental health wouldn't know if someone were there or not and the nursing homes are a place to stay when things could be so much worse. But if you live near one, volunteer to just go say hi, or read to someone or visit. They love it! One man asked me to watch the scale when he stepped on it and tell me what it said because he couldn't see how much he weighed. Tall, thin man. He weighed 175, he said he had been trying to loose weight, I said "me too"! He was happy someone just helped a little bit.

  I have to say where her nursing home is in a pretty bad part of the city. I was kind of nervous being there. But I will go again for sure and send her things. When we talked to her she could tell you everything from the past like it just happened, but short term things she forgets. She would forget things we just told her. That's the nature of old age. In my opinion worse than death.

  I asked her what she thought about the teachings she learned from the wt like what about a paradise earth, where do we go when we die, what about a ressurection of the dead? She said when we die, we just die but that God is in charge of what he does with us and we don't know. But that he and his son are loving and she believes in having life of some sort. She believes we will be ress'ed somehow someday. She said the Bible 'hints' to things but doesn't tell us all but that she knows we are loved by God. She said about a perfect earth, "the earth is already perfect". IMO, a truly 'aware' statement. I've always said that, but that man's perception of it, it's negative energy, make it appear not to be. I asked her if the wts got anything right and she said "well they believe in God". I thought that was so funny.

  She showed us maybe 10 pics she had in her wallet of her and some family. Old, old pics. She was quite the looker! Just so you all know she has family in Australia who tried to get her to move there a long time ago when she first went in the nursing home and she opted to stay here. So their is family who cares about her but she chose to stay here.

  Like Shawn said , we are planning another outing. She does not fully comprehend that their are all these people on something called the internet! And like I said she will not remember your cards BUT will enjoying getting them and placing them on her book shelf. She so enjoyed talking to Ray and Cynthia and they really enjoyed talking to her.

  That's my experience. Just glad to help. I did all these kinds of things when I was an active jw, but they don't want my help anymore so someone else can have it!............wf
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  62

  My Assignment For Ray Franz

  by sacolton in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  today i met the widow of ed dunlap, who was of the watchtower writing committee and a great thinker.

  he found that the watchtower was not in harmony with the scriptures, so they disfellowshipped him.

  when ray franz was disfellowshipped, it was ed who took him in and gave ray a job and a place to stay.

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  awildflower

  Hey Sacolton, if you need help taking her shopping or whatever, I'm in Moore and would be glad to help. The thing I love about this, is that someone had a need, someone else was called to help and others care! That's the way it should be right? Well my friend, who is still an active JW has tried for three weeks to get the elders in his hall to make an announcement about an elderly brother who has been temporarily put in a nursing home for some therapy. When he asked why they haven't made the announcement, they told him "there's an order to everything and we can't just do that". What! According to the Bible that they read, there is no "law" against the fruitage of the spirit, but leave it to these guys to make one against unconditional love! Unbelievable. So keep the love flowing friends!...........wf
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  14

  Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you??

  by darthfader in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  from whom are they taking the lead?

  does that mean that the previous leader is not leading anymore?

  moses is used as an example when he appointed "chiefs" over different groups of isrealites.

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  awildflower

  Of course, I've come a long way in 6 months and not only do I doubt that verse but many in the Bible now. I think it's interesting how as we start to 'awake' certain verses pop out at us as just not fitting a God of love but man. When you learn more , or I should say 'feel' more about who the Creator is, you understand yourself more, and you use that wonderful gift of intuition that was given us to recognize things that just don't fit with unconditional love. The more 'still' we get, the more things will become clear to us.............wf
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  14

  Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you??

  by darthfader in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  from whom are they taking the lead?

  does that mean that the previous leader is not leading anymore?

  moses is used as an example when he appointed "chiefs" over different groups of isrealites.

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  awildflower

  Here is some research I did on this verse a while ago, I'll share it here:

  Ever since I read in Ray's book about how Hebrews was written for the Jews that were having a hard time accepting and adjusting to this new "Way" that Jesus introduced to the world, I've been thinking about this scripture in Hebrews 13:17 it reads:
  
  Obey your leaders and submit to them, for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account. Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you. (NASB)
  
  Be obedient to those who are taking the lead among you and be submissive, for they are keeping watch over your souls as those who will render an account; that they may do this with joy and not with sighing, for this would be damaging to you. (NWT)
  
  Now we all know what we've been taught about this verse, in fact it's a favorite of the brothers, we hear it a lot here. But when I read the context of Hebrews chapter 13 in light of what Ray said this book was for, it seemed to me completely out of place, in fact I think it is entirely interpreted wrong by religion and for good reason as we will see.
  
  Hebrews chapter 13 reads like a summation to me. Having heard all that they did in the following chapters of Hebrews, the writer seems to be summing up what makes a 'good person' one agreeable to this new "Way". For instance he says in
  
  Verse 1- Let love of the brethren continue.
  Verse 2-Do not neglect to show hospitality to strangers...
  Verse 3- Remember the prisoners...and all those who are ill treated...
  Verse 4- Marriage should be honorable....
  Verse 5- Make sure your character is free from the love of money, being content with what you have...
  Verse 7- Remember those who led you...consider their conduct, imitate their faith.
  Verse 9- Do not be carried away by varied and strange teachings...
  
  
  Then the writer talks about Jesus and how he was that ultimate sacrifice for all people, he replaces the burnt sacrifices' (verses 11,12)
  
  He talks about how Jesus in verse 12 "suffered outside the gate" and that we, in verse 13, should "go out to Him outside the camp, bearing His reproach". The final instructions are one to pray for them, and to offer to God the fruit of lips, not to neglect doing good and sharing. Then right in the middle of this you have verse 17 on Obey your leaders...
  After just hearing that they were to follow Jesus outside the camp, where we can conclude that there are no "leaders" only Christ to follow, then we have this verse. So I ask, who are these leaders and what does it mean to obey them, it didn't seem to fit in the context of this chapter or in the whole context of the book of Hebrews which is a wonderful letter of how Jesus completely ended things the way they knew it, including having leaders.
  
  So I get out the Greek/English Concordance. The Greek word here for obey means I Persuade. This Greek word is used 52 times in the NT and other renderings include the following: Mt 27:20 persuaded, Mt 27:43 trusts, Mt 28:14 will satisfy, Lk 16:31 be convinced, Acts 5:36 joined, Acts 5: 37 followed, Acts 5:39 were convinced, Acts 12:20 winning over, Acts 13:43 urged, Rom 2:19 are sure, Gal. 5:10 I am confident, Phil. 1:25 I am convinced.
  
  All of these indicate a personal conviction or personal action on the individuals part not on someone else doing these things to them but the other way around. Therefore if we were to put the word persuade in Hebrews 13:17 it would read:
  
  Persuade your leaders and submit to them...
  
  This completely changes the verse to me. Because these people were learning a Superior way of living they, by their conduct and sometimes speech, could persuade those taking the lead over them to follow them "outside the camp" to Jesus. This would be completely opposite of how we understand this verse today. When it says: submit to them the Greek word here is yield. Just think, if we had just been given this new Way of living and wanted to share it with others or persuade others of its valuableness would we not yieldto them, or do so with a mild spirit, letting our conduct show the way, being humble to others including those who were still claiming to be our leaders? Isn't that what awareness teaches, to just BE and let others follow?
  
  Then the verse says "for they keep watch over your souls as those who will give an account..." This brings up who are they? The Jewish religious leaders at the time who would not let go of their power and authority. Of course they loved the old way, that's why we have the Jewish religion even to this day, they will not submit to this new Way. Therefore they will be accountable for their actions over the people.
  
  Then the verse says "Let them do this with joy and not with grief, for this would be unprofitable for you". To me this speaks of how these leaders would react to the conduct of the person trying to persuade them of this new way. Doing so in a mild, yielding spirit would certainly mean that acceptance of this Way by others would be with joy, and not with sighing if it were harsh and forced upon them.
  
  Out of that 52 times this greek word is used two are obey and one is obeying. Let's consider these. The first one is Gal 5:7 it reads in the NWT: You were running well. Who hindered you from keeping on obeying the truth? Now we could easily interchange obeying with any of these other words or phrases and get the same meaning for example: Who hindered you from what you were persuaded to believe. Who hindered you from being convincedof the truth. Who hindered you from what you were confident was the truth?
  
  The next time obey is used James 3:3 which reads in the NT: "If we put bridles in the mouths of horses for them to obey us, we manage also their whole body." Again using these other words or phrases does not change the meaning of the verse. We get the idea that the individual is leading, persuading this horse where he wants it to go.
  
  However, the other place obey is used is of course Heb. 13:17 but when you replace obey with persuade your leaders, win over your leaders, convince your leaders,or any of these other words or phrases it entirely changes the verse! So why would the Church/Religious leaders from 300 ce on not use the proper word here? Because look at what it promotes, an obedience to someone taking the lead over us which is contradictory to what Jesus just set up and laid out for our lives 300 years earlier. How convenient! They had an agenda in 300 ce and the WTO had the same agenda in 1950 when they set out to translate their own Bible.
  
  Now I did google this verse to see what others thought and at best one article said that to "obey our leaders" did not mean just doing everything they tell us to do. But that is still a "Church" view of having leaders at all. Most scholars do not go back to Jesus and the 300 year period before the Church which is a shame because that is where the Awareness is, the true 'jewel' of The Way. So although I appreciated this article on it, it didn't go back far enough.
  
  Something else I feel I should share here is what Ray says in his Afterword in this book about this "camp" mentioned in Hebrews 13:11-14. It's very interesting and it yields itself to what I think is the true meaning of this verse so I will now share that:
  
  What does it mean for us to "go to him outside the camp"? "Outside the camp" is here used as interchangeable with "outside the city." The first mention of a city in Scripture is with regard to Cain and revealed his lack of confidence in God's declaration that Cain's life was not to be taken by other humans. They city thus becomes representative of the quest for security by one's own means. (Gen. 4:13-17.) This same spirit soon surfaced in the post-Flood period, and the urge to build a city synthesized the desire for security by human means, along with the desire for the power and prominence the city offered. (Gen. 11:1-9) The opposite viewpoint is presented as evidence of the faith of men like Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, that they did not seek the protection of cities but lived in tents because of looking forward "to the city that has foundations, whose architect and builder is God." (Heb. 11:8-16) All this gives deeper meaning to the Christian writer's words that "here we have no lasting city, but we are looking for a city that is to come," a city that is described elsewhere as heavenly, the "Jerusalem above, " the "city of the living God". (Heb. 12:22; 13:14; Gal. 4:25,26; Rev. 21:1-7)
  
  While it is true that the world as a whole, and not merely its great cities, is symbolic of the human quest for security, power and prominence, the context of the words in the letter to the Hebrews would seem to place the focus on a more specific area, the religious one. Jesus was impaled "outside the city gate" and the city was Jerusalem, then the center of worship of God, a worship that under the old covenant could be called "organized worship". Today, worship by God's servants is not, ar at least should not be, centered on one city of this world. Many may rightly claim that they are free from looking to any literal city to give them a religious sense of security, or as a source of power and prominence. But since we do not "go to Him (Christ)" by going outside a literal gate or outside a literal camp, the test is not as to our showing a willingness to look elsewhere than to a literal city for our security. Many of those to whom the letter to the Hebrews was addressed were not living in Jerusalem, and we, like them, are called to go outside the figurative camp.
  
  Today we find religious "establishment" that has developed, composed of many denominations. In a sense they are each individual "camps" and yet they compositely form a large "camp" of an organizationally structured, religious establishment. This is seen in that one generally gains recognition as part of that establishment by membership in one of the denominations composing it. not to be part of that "camp," in one or more of its sectors, often means being viewed as an outsider, no matter how strong one's faith, or how great one's devotion is to God, or how intensely one strives to hold to unity with his Son.
  
  For the Hebrews to whom the exhortation was addressed, Christianity meant a willingness to go "outside the camp," at the cost of former assiciations and of being labeled as an outcast, not entitled to certain privileges of those "in the camp." Exclusion form the synagogue meant a cutting off of all existing social contacts. (John 9:22; 12:42,43; 16:2) But enduring this difficulty and seeming isolation would not isolate them from Christ-it would instead bring them nearer to Christ. Like Abraham and others they could show that they had here "no lasting city" but they looked for a city to come with eternal foundations. (Heb. 13:15) This may mean a lack of recognition and may carry with it the sense of being transitory, "on the move," rather than nicely settled down, but it brings spiritual and eternal benefits that more than compensate and that can fill the heart.
  
  So,(among the other wonderful points he makes) this living "outside the camp" where Jesus is their only leader, would not allow Heb. 13:17, it just wouldn't make sense to me. And when Heb. 13:7 says to remember those "who led you", this could be speaking about these very men Abraham, Moses and those other "so great a cloud of Witnesses". Who were they accountable to? Jehovah himself, not some other leaders. So to those who choose to go outside the camp are accountable to only Jesus not religious leaders.
  
  As a side note the NWT renders Hebrews 13:7 as "Remember those who are taking the lead among you..." and the footnote on that says or "are governors of you." How convenient for this religion considering they are trying to convince us that not Jesus but and 'anointed' class are over us now. The NASB study Bible renders it "Remember those who led you..." The footnote reads: Probably indicates that these exemplary leaders were now dead. This to me could possibly mean those 'great cloud of witnesses' in Heb. 11. Imitate them and how they lived in 'tents' 'outside the camp' with one authority figure , Jehovah. I guess that would leave out the currant anointed GB right!?
  
  I know this was a lot. I had to get it out of my head and stored on my computer. I could be way off on this but my conclusions are that based on the context of the book of Hebrews and the context of Hebrews chapter 13, obey leaders over us is not the way of Jesus. He taught us to have respect for the authorities but to know that we had one father and teacher and that was him. This verse in my opinion could only mean that followers of The Way were to try to convince, or persuade their old religious leaders to follow them outside the camp. However, I welcome imput! This verse has alwasy been a bother to me because of how Church uses it, it doesn't sound or feel like the fruitage of the spirit.

  wf
  
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  19

  Any Change on YMCA Policy?

  by bavman in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  i had heard recently the wtbs may have changed their policy on the ymca.

  it would be helpful to me personally if they have.

  i did know of a couple of people in my last congregation who went but i also heard some elders talking against it.

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  awildflower

  About a year ago when my fade started my family and I joined the Y because of the great services they offered. I did research in the wt to see what it says about it and I read the same article as above but the following sentence justified for me why I COULD join:

  Some individuals have on occasion not become members but have paid a onetime admission fee, viewing this as simply paying for a commercial service available. Even in this regard it is wise to consider whether this course will adversely affect the consciences of others.—1 Cor. 8:11-13.

  We paid our one time admission fee for a family of four for the year and used the facility. Is that what the above sentence means? And I didn't tell anyone about it to not stumble them because my conscience aloud it. Maybe I'm stretching it, but it seems to say 'just be careful who knows'. I love the Y but we canceled our membership because no-one had time to go.........wf
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  14

  Have you heard of the Field Service Application on the I-phone for JW's?

  by awildflower in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  ok, so i'm technically challenged and i don't use the i-phone, but my 19 year old son does and he just showed me this application for jw's and keeping track of their field service!

  it shows maps, keeps track of time, addresses , even how to e-mail time to three different addresses!...............here's the thing: how many jw's would know about this if we have always been encouraged to not get to involved in technology.

  they would dog technology but i'll bet they will use this on an assembly someday to show how jehovah has blessed them and look at the new tool he has given them and aren't we special.

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  awildflower

  Good question. Who came up with this anyway? All I know is the org will use it as a bragging point! jwfacts, I hate that term to "it's a conscience matter", but if your conscience doesn't match ours.........they let you know it by how your treated...........wf
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  27

  Watchtower says "Field Service Report NOT a Major Concern!"

  by UnDisfellowshipped in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  the watchtower, june 1st, 2005 issue, pages 14-15:.

  "saved, not by works alone, but by undeserved kindness" (study article).

  (paragraph 1): "christians [...] realize that in jehovah's service, right motives are more important than personal accomplishments.

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  awildflower

  I know this article! A year ago an elder tried to tell me that my children were not going to survive the end of this system of things if they were not in field service. (Wow they aren't even baptized.....anyways.) I wrote a nice long letter to that elder and a couple others and included points from this article. Needless-to-say, I didn't hear anything back!............wf
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  14

  Have you heard of the Field Service Application on the I-phone for JW's?

  by awildflower in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  ok, so i'm technically challenged and i don't use the i-phone, but my 19 year old son does and he just showed me this application for jw's and keeping track of their field service!

  it shows maps, keeps track of time, addresses , even how to e-mail time to three different addresses!...............here's the thing: how many jw's would know about this if we have always been encouraged to not get to involved in technology.

  they would dog technology but i'll bet they will use this on an assembly someday to show how jehovah has blessed them and look at the new tool he has given them and aren't we special.

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  awildflower

  Ok, so I'm technically challenged and I don't use the I-Phone, but my 19 year old son does and he just showed me this application for jw's and keeping track of their field service! It shows maps, keeps track of time, addresses , even how to e-mail time to three different addresses!...............here's the thing: How many jw's would know about this if we have always been encouraged to not get to involved in technology. They would dog technology but I'll bet they will use this on an assembly someday to show how Jehovah has blessed them and look at the new tool he has given them and aren't we special. I can't believe this.

  I didn't stop to check if this has been talked about already, forgive me if it has. Anyone else heard of it? My son says it's pretty cool and it almost makes him want to be a jw just to use it!